Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Simon Belmont]

Other money issues:

*Joseph called his dad as patriarch and then the patriarchs charged for recorded blessings

*Joseph charged money for people to view the mummy and Egyptian papyrus-I believe his mom sometimes showed them

*Hyrum and Joseph both filed for bankruptcy. Hyrum's went through and Joseph's was denied.

*There was that whole banking fiasco that has already been mentioned.

*Joseph Smith tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon

*Joseph taught that the SALVATION of the church depended upon the building of the Nauvoo House and Nauvoo Temple. I find that very bothersome. Even more so since Brigham wrote in his journal that the temple was never completed.
The Nauvoo House was a hotel. Why would the salvation of the church depend on the building of a hotel? The saints were told over and over again that the salvation of the church depended on its completion. They abandoned it before it was completed.
I'm guessing that members of Joseph's family would have run the Nauvoo House and profited from it.

I still await your sources for your claims.

[_just me]

Other money issues:

*Joseph called his dad as patriarch and then the patriarchs charged for recorded blessings

*Joseph charged money for people to view the mummy and Egyptian papyrus-I believe his mom sometimes showed them

*Hyrum and Joseph both filed for bankruptcy. Hyrum's went through and Joseph's was denied.

*There was that whole banking fiasco that has already been mentioned.

*Joseph Smith tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon

*Joseph taught that the SALVATION of the church depended upon the building of the Nauvoo House and Nauvoo Temple. I find that very bothersome. Even more so since Brigham wrote in his journal that the temple was never completed.
The Nauvoo House was a hotel. Why would the salvation of the church depend on the building of a hotel? The saints were told over and over again that the salvation of the church depended on its completion. They abandoned it before it was completed.
I'm guessing that members of Joseph's family would have run the Nauvoo House and profited from it.

I still await your sources for your claims.

The only claim you were looking forward to was the baptism money box I said I would find. It is in the History of the Church during the Nauvoo years. My kids played with my flags, so I have to go through it page by page. It'll take some time.

If you'd like to CFR anything else, go ahead. Just know that most of it comes directly from the History of the Church and/or Joseph Smith's journals. Do you have access to those sources?

[_Simon Belmont]

If you'd like to CFR anything else, go ahead. Just know that most of it comes directly from the History of the Church and/or Joseph Smith's journals. Do you have access to those sources?

I will not pester you about the CFRs. I just do not see much point in discussing claims which are not demonstrated with sources. Further, just because someone said something doesn't make it Church Doctine.

[_Tchild]

I still await your sources for your claims.

Sources? Since when has bothering to cite sources ever been a concern for you Simon?

Here you go, lets see your sources for this prodigious and meticulous research on Joseph Smith. I assume you have an advanced degree in psychology?


Sources, it is a two way street.

There are only three possibilities:


1. Joseph Smith was a con man; he knew what he was doing was absolutely a fraud. His motivation was money and sex.
2. Joseph Smith really, truly believed he had a vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, and they directed him throughout his short life. Everything he did, and everything he endured were because he truly believed he was what he claimed to be. But, he was completely wrong, and suffered from a major mental illness.
3. Joseph Smith was everything he claimed to be, and it was the truth.


Option 1 does not follow:


•A con man, upon facing death, will certainly reveal his con in order to save his life. There may not be any guarantees that his life will be spared after giving up the con, but when his life is in danger he will try everything to influence his captors to spare it. This is simple Human nature – fight or flight.
•A con man, upon facing multiple tarrings and featherings, beatings and verbal slander throughout his entire life, will certainly reveal his con in order to stop the chaos, to restore peace and safety to his life.
•A con man does not convince “witnesses” and followers to endure the persecution they endured by simply being associated with Joseph Smith. One of these people will surely “rat out” the con man in order to restore peace and security to their lives, especially if they gain very little from the con. Likewise, a con man does not convince another convert to lead hundreds of people to walk across the United States without the con eventually being revealed. It has never been revealed in 180 years.
•There were witnesses, who never denied (even on their death beds) that the Book of Mormon was translated via the plates. This is not to say that the witnesses were without flaw. One particular case of that of Martin Harris, who left the Church and bounced around to a dozen or so other denominations. This is expected, because when one has a powerful spiritual experience as Harris did, he would seek those confirmations again in other faiths. He came back to the fold, late in his life. He never denied the Book of Mormon.

Option 2 does not follow:


•Joseph Smith was repeatedly shown to be highly intelligent.
•If there was a mental disability, somewhere, somehow it would have been written about or documented. No such writings exist.
•Even his most hated former associates never claimed he acted strangely or like that of a mental patient.

[_Simon Belmont]

Sources? Since when has bothering to cite sources ever been a concern for you Simon?

My OP was based on my opinion, which was formed by voracious reading and pure logic. I will not boast about my academic achievements (although I have stated exactly which degrees I hold on another thread).

[_Markk]

Sources? Since when has bothering to cite sources ever been a concern for you Simon?

My OP was based on my opinion, which was formed by voracious reading and pure logic. I will not boast about my academic achievements (although I have stated exactly which degrees I hold on another thread).

Simon,

Not that it matters much, but while we are doing 20 questions were you born in the church or are you the "c" word?

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon,

Not that it matters much, but while we are doing 20 questions were you born in the church or are you the "c" word?

Off topic, but I'll make an exception here.

Every member, at one time or another is a convert. Both those who have been born into the faith, and those who have not must, at some point in their lives, take Moroni's promise and be truly converted.

[_Yoda]

Simon--
I think you may have missed my post earlier in the thread. I really would appreciate your comments on the following:

Simon, you mentioned 3 alternatives regarding Joseph Smith's prophecy.

I submit 3 alternatives regarding polygamy:

1. Knowing the prior heartbreak polygamy caused his daughters in prior dispensations, which the Lord himself acknowledged in the Book of Mormon, the Lord commanded polygamy anyway.

2. Joseph had an affair and used a polygamy revelation to conveniently cover his tracks.

3. Joseph honestly believed that polygamy was a commandment, and he was wrong.

I refuse to believe #1. It makes no sense based on many factors. Raising righteous seed can easily be done in a one man-one woman situation. Why would a kind and loving Heavenly Father place this type of trial on his children when the primary outcome is the degredation and heartbreak of His daughters, which He, himself recognized?

That leaves 2 and 3 as options. Comments?

Oh, and, in case you're wondering...I am active LDS.

[_just me]

If you'd like to CFR anything else, go ahead. Just know that most of it comes directly from the History of the Church and/or Joseph Smith's journals. Do you have access to those sources?

I will not pester you about the CFRs. I just do not see much point in discussing claims which are not demonstrated with sources. Further, just because someone said something doesn't make it Church Doctine.

If something is in the D&C is it doctrine?
If a statement/proclamation is signed by the entire Quorum of the 12 is it considered a valid statement on behalf of the church?

by the way, you haven't even addressed the things that I gave with sources.

For an expert on Joseph Smith you sure do not seem to be very aware of things he did in his life. It's a shame because I really was looking forward to your thoughts on some of these things.

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon--
I think you may have missed my post earlier in the thread. I really would appreciate your comments on the following:

I did indeed, and I apologize.

Simon, you mentioned 3 alternatives regarding Joseph Smith's prophecy.

I submit 3 alternatives regarding polygamy:

1. Knowing the prior heartbreak polygamy caused his daughters in prior dispensations, which the Lord himself acknowledged in the Book of Mormon, the Lord commanded polygamy anyway.

This is plausible. The Lord does many things that cause harm in the short term for greater benefit in the eternities. Remember, for example, D&C 121:7-8

7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

2. Joseph had an affair and used a polygamy revelation to conveniently cover his tracks.

I cannot accept this, based on my research. Joseph Smith was an honorable and honest man.

3. Joseph honestly believed that polygamy was a commandment, and he was wrong.

This is a possibility, of course. I would sooner believe #1 and #3 than #2.