Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Themis]

I understand, but to what end? What is the purpose of "Lying and making things up like the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham"?

To make money. To start a religion. To introduce new doctrine as though it has ancient roots, etc, etc ,etc.

One could make the argument that the pious fraud does have a mental disorder, seeing hallucinations and such in Joseph Smith's case.

If you think you can make the argument then go ahead. We are all capable of seeing Hallucinations, and most if not all of us probably have to some extent in our lives. Mental illness needs to be to an extent where an individual cannot function well in society. I would say most pious frauds can function well.

I agree, and he didn't. For me, this is an even more powerful testament to the story's truthfulness.

No your logic is that all believers throughout the world including Joseph Smith would deny there beliefs or claims in order to save their lives. This is clearly not true. We can find many who have suffered or died for their beliefs in most of the worlds religions, thus your logic is flawed. You also keep forgetting that Joseph was most likely a pious fraud believing in himself, and maybe just as important he was never given an option to deny. I would add that people are willing do die for their beliefs, as well as to create or maintain a legacy. I think why many like Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard start religions is to create a legacy to be remembered. People have died to make a name for themselves. Did Jim Jones believe, and why didn't he give himself up instead of killing himself. Why did David Koresh like Joseph Smith risk his life for his beliefs.

Those two religions are insignificant, even the Jehovah's Witnesses have only half of the membership. I am not bashing on them or saying they are wrong, I am simply saying that the success of the LDS church is another testament to Joseph Smith.

They are proof that truth has nothing to do with success, and if you believe success has bearing on truth then the seventh day Adventists have had much more success at over 16 million members(started about 1863), and I believe they don't count people who have not been to a meeting in over a year. So I take it you will be heading to one of their meetings this Saturday, since by your logic they must be more true then the LDS. Or maybe you want to join the Catholics or Islam since they are growing fast and well over a billion in number.

[_Nightlion]

I know everything about him.

I am fairly certain you will evade this assiduously, but if you do engage it could make for a most interesting discussion.

EXTREME CAUTION:
THIS TOPIC IS LIKE WATER ON THE WITCH HERE IN OZ

Joseph Smith said:(paraphrasing, exact quote available on demand)

Baptism by water is but half a baptism and avails nothing without the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Did he endorse the imperceptible process (contemporary LDS) or the verifiable visitation of the Holy Ghost as per the Book of Mormon?

Alma 9: 21
21 Having been visited by the Spirit of God; having conversed with angels, and having been spoken unto by the voice of the Lord; and having the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and also many gifts, the gift of speaking with tongues, and the gift of preaching, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of translation;

3 Ne. 11: 35
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

3 Ne. 12: 2
2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.

Moro. 8: 26
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

If the latter then why did he fail to enforce this same standard found in the Book of Mormon of holding up a person's membership contingent upon them receiving the visitation of the Holy Ghost?

Moro. 6: 4, 9
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

Expanded upon by Christ here:
3 Nephi 18:28-32
28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.
30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.
31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.
32 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out of your synagogues, or your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.

[_just me]

But yes, it is different today. Strangers (a.k.a. non-members) are NOT allowed and AA's are allowed (finally). Last I checked there was no admission price at the door.

Tithing is the admission price today.

I understand. However, I was referring to the $5 at the door fee that was to be paid to enter the Nauvoo Temple upon completion. I see that as a little bit different-though, yes, there is a cost to admission today.

[_Simon Belmont]

Ok. .But you seem rather cavelier about it. You claim Smith did not lie because he was legally married to only one women. Is that not similar to President Clinton's infamous comment of "I did not have sex with that woman."

I did not mean to seem cavalier. Polygamy is wrong.

Of course this begs the question of did God really command it?

I suppose that we cannot know for certain. However, the goodness and nobleness I see from Joseph Smith would dictate that God did command it. Smith was troubled by this, but wanted to obey the Lord's commandments. I do not claim to know the purpose behind it.

My studies on this lead me to conclude it is likely God did not command this.

That is okay if that is your conclusion. It doesn't really have much bearing on whether he was a true prophet or not.

Talks cheap dude. Based on what you have posted thus far I don't see any great depth of knowledge on your part. I could be mistaken.

You are.

You said it did not matter what Joseph did or what mistakes he made. My point is that his his actions reflect his character

But he was still a mortal man! It is easy to judge historical people, but none of us were there. All we have is the available writings about him. He was most definitely a "rough stone." Do you think God molds rough stones who are humble and able to receive God's word, or do you think he attempts to use high-society near perfect people?

Great. I have read probably 10-15 books on Joseph Smith, the Documentive History twice, Roberts history twice, hundreds of articles and papers, and so on. So you are well read about Joseph Smith, So am I as are others here.

I congratulate you, but this is not a pissing contest.

I don't think so. Given the billions of humans that have walked the earth the numbers that claim God speaks directly to them and that their message is the one to follow are relatively few.

These are only the people that we know of. How many "Parowan Prophets" have there been in history?

When a man that is viewed upon as God's mouthpiece tells a female believer of younger years that she was appointed as his before the world was and that if she enters into plural marriage with him her exaltation is assured but she has only 24 hours to decide well, that seems like an awful lot of duress at least to me. But sure, one can only read the historical accounts and make their conclusion. Apparently you are ok when someone abuses their positing of power and authority.

The age thing should not be an issue. It was much more common to marry younger women. And if you are referring to Sister Kimball, see above.

I believe you were arguing at one point that we cannot really know if Joseph Smith consummated many of his plural marriages. I was pointing out you were certainly in error since many of his wives testified that they did consummate the marriage.

I concede this issue. I did not mean to imply that I thought it never happened.

Nice dodge. But really that is the only answer you can give when you look at a Wayne Bent or the many like him , including Joseph Smith.

Time and place, mon ami. In modern times, Polygamy is against the law.

[_Simon Belmont]

So you accept Muhammad as God's prophet and Islam as his true religions then?

I accept Muhammad as an inspired prophet of God.

[_just me]

just me wrote:
On bankruptcy:

April 18, 1842: Hyrum and Joseph file for bankruptcy in Carthage [see HC 4:600]

This source I was actually aware of. Does it have any bearing on whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not?

This has bearing on his financial abilities, needs and forsight. Along with all the other financial red flags I listed it is a problem. I think many of us see a major motivation for using the church for financial gain.

Quote:
On church SALVATION depending on building the Nauvoo House and Temple....

Very interesting read, thank you for the course. It appears this was an example of a failed prophecy. The Nauvoo house was never built.

Does it have any bearing on whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet?

Actually, this is not an example of a failed prophecy. The Saints were given explicit instructions that came with promises. It is for each individual to decide if these instructions came from God or man.

If from God-Then the church was rejected along with her dead. They failed to complete the Nauvoo House and Temple. Therefore, God being unable to lie, the church was REJECTED along with all the proxy work. I do believe there was a repentance claus built in, but I haven't seen any repentance forthcoming.

If from Joseph-I find it fascinating that he left a legacy of a rejected church. If he did make these revelations up it is plain to see that he was motivated by greed and perhaps egomania. He has entire verses about people giving money over to build his family a house-which would double as a family business.
He threatened the entire city with God's rejection in order to motivate them with fear.

The Saints were PROMISED by the Lord in Joseph Smith's revelations that they would not be moved from Nauvoo if they obeyed him.

There are still Mormons in Nauvoo. There were Mormons who remained, If I recall correctly.

Sooo, the Saints were not moved from Nauvoo? Or are you just quibbling for the fun of it?

[_just me]

Simon, I asked a question previously that probably got overlooked.

You say you know *everything* about Joseph (which I don't believe unless you ARE him). You also claim he made mistakes.

Could you please list his mistakes?

[_harmony]

I did not mean to seem cavalier. Polygamy is wrong.

Well, that's progress.

. However, the goodness and nobleness I see from Joseph Smith would dictate that God did command it.

I think that particular opinion is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I don't consider adulterous liars to be good and noble, but that's just me.

really have much bearing on whether he was a true prophet or not.

To be more accurate, it has bearing on whether he was a fallen prophet or not.

Do you think God molds rough stones who are humble and able to receive God's word, or do you think he attempts to use high-society near perfect people?

Humble men do not brag about having done more for mankind than anyone else except Jesus Christ. Joseph wasn't exactly humble.

And high society people aren't perfect. Good grief. Not even Mormon royalty are perfect. No one's saying Joseph didn't sin. What I'm saying is Joseph died without repenting of lying about revelations. And we know this because we know the repentence process and we know he didn't follow it.

The age thing should not be an issue. It was much more common to marry younger women.

There's younger and then there's really younger... like 21 years younger.

In modern times, Polygamy is against the law.

It was then too.

[_Simon Belmont]

To make money. To start a religion. To introduce new doctrine as though it has ancient roots, etc, etc ,etc.

The only end results that I could see as motivation are to make money, and sex. The others, like "start a religion" and "to introduce new doctrine as though it has ancient roots" are means to this end. This falls into category 1.

No your logic is that all believers throughout the world including Joseph Smith would deny there beliefs or claims in order to save their lives. This is clearly not true. We can find many who have suffered or died for their beliefs in most of the worlds religions, thus your logic is flawed.

Yes, because they truly believed in what they were preaching (#2).

You also keep forgetting that Joseph was most likely a pious fraud believing in himself, and maybe just as important he was never given an option to deny.

But again, he would have tried the option when his life was on the line whether it was given to him or not.

I think why many like Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard start religions is to create a legacy to be remembered.

I do not consider Hubbard mentally "all there" at all. According to Wikipedia:

Publicly, Hubbard was sociable and charming.[153] Privately, he wrote entries in his notebook like "All men are your slaves," and "You can be merciless whenever your will is crossed and you have the right to be merciless."

Did Jim Jones believe, and why didn't he give himself up instead of killing himself. Why did David Koresh like Joseph Smith risk his life for his beliefs.

They obviously really believed what they were teaching.

They are proof that truth has nothing to do with success, and if you believe success has bearing on truth then the seventh day Adventists have had much more success at over 16 million members(started about 1863), and I believe they don't count people who have not been to a meeting in over a year. So I take it you will be heading to one of their meetings this Saturday, since by your logic they must be more true then the LDS. Or maybe you want to join the Catholics or Islam since they are growing fast and well over a billion in number.

My position is not that success is the only factor in determining truth. It is one of the factors, however.

[_sr1030]

Simon wrote:
Welcome, my old friend.

I asked for sources out of pure curiosity. I wanted to read what just me has read. It was not malicious in nature, as you seem to automatically assume

I have been away too long to recognize who you are. Sorry. But thanks for the welcome.

I asked the questions the way I did to get a straight answer. There were no feelings of contempt whatsoever. Just simply how I eventually learned to deal with LDS. I of course guessed you weren't really interested in the quotes or references themselves. Usually requests for references are a delay tactic and an avenue to ridicule if the reference is not provided. It is really an unnecessary tactic that benefits no one in the long run.

sr