KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

[_Kishkumen]

However, Kerry is wrong when he says that Anthon was fudging when he said the translation was correct. Anthon almost certainly was not even shown a translation. Nearly all the early accounts agree that Joseph had not yet attempted a translation at the time Harris took the characters to Anthon. The "fudging" occurred in the 1838 history, which revised the story of Harris's visit in order to make it a little more faith-promoting. See here for details.

And then in 1835 Chandler offers an affidavit attesting to Joseph Smith's prowess with Egyptian, something Chandler was most likely completely unqualified to do, and this testimony is one of the pieces of evidence used to support the idea of the early July manuscript of Abraham 1-3. Problematic? I think so.

[_wenglund]

Joseph Smith had papyri in his possession, and had already spent hours scouring it. Joseph Smith was also familiar with the Masonic cipher in question (if that is, indeed, the origin of other elements, which is being contested by some). All Joseph Smith would have to do is, probably with the help of “revelation”, to pick figures out of the Masonic cipher that he believed to be Egyptian and use them on the KEP to fill in missing gaps from the figures obtained from the papyri.

Now what is so horribly implausible about that? It seems quite simple and straight-forward – so simple and straight-forward that I imagine it takes quite a bit of energy to continue to refuse to see the point.

Ignoring for the moment the modest change in what you said here as contrasted with what you said before, perhaps you didn't realize it, but you have now inadvertantly contradicted yourself. You have been claiming all along that Joseph wouldn't know an Egyptian character from Latin or Arimaic. Right? So then how is Joseph supposed pick out characters from a non-Egyptian cipher grid that he believes look like Egyptian characters, when he doesn't know what the Egyptian characters look like, particularly if they are missing from the Egyptian papyri.

And, if you are going to suddenly change you mind once again and figure that Joseph did know what Egyptian characters look like, then if he wished to use Egytian characters in the KEP, then there would have been no point to using a non-Egyptian cipher grid. He could have just drawn characters that looked Egyptian to him..

Either way, your modified version isn't any less insipid that your previous version.

But, let me be of some help here. If you wish to retain your unbelief in the restored gospel, that doesn't require you to make yourself look ridiculous coming up with alternative explanations for things like the KEP. All you have to do in response to apologetic theories is to say that you are unconvinced. You need not come up with a counter theory or hypothesis of your own. In fact, given you abismal track record, it would be in your interest to not float your own hypothesis, which you will then be obliged to substantiate, and will likely fail.

Really, I am just trying to make things easy for you and for me (I grow weary pointing out all the inanity).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Markk]

Now there are two possible explanations for the presence of figures in the KEP that were not obtained by the papyri. One is that the KEP were intended to help translate the Book of Abraham, and Joseph Smith filled in the missing gaps – exactly as he did with the facsimile. The other possibility is that it was not used to translate the Book of Abraham, but was manufactured after said translation, in which case it could be intended as a sort of Rosetta stone for future Egyptian translation. The problem for defenders of the faith is just as severe in either scenario.

Beastie,

A third scenario is that it was just a bunch of hot air, a scam. Kind of like the two guys in Huck Finn, when one was pretending to be deaf and dumb to get the dead mans fortune. Joseph Smith was a street smart man who was taking it as it came, always one step in front of disaster until it caught up with him. My guess is he wasn't even sure what he was going to do with the KEP. The biggest thing the Book of Abraham and the KEP did, whether he realized it or not, was to solidify to the saints that he was indeed a prophet worth following. Beastie I could be wrong here, but I think your giving him way too much credit? The real answer as to why, is very simple, and not a "scholarly" effort, the KEP was a PR production for the prophet to build his persona.

Look at how the Fair crowd was in anticipation for the WS presentation, he was, and still is a demigod of sorts to these guys. Can you imagine how it was back in Joseph Smith days with the word out that Joseph the seer was working on the translation of a document actually signed by Abraham and Joesph, and how his scribes would feed the choir of this incredible work Joseph had them doing? Right or wrong I believe this is the most likely senerio.

Take care
MG

[_wenglund]

The reason I brought up Anthon, is that he was the only person around that could read, or at least make progress with Egyptian. So...if no one could understand it in the first place, why put a code on it.

With all due respect, Markk, I can't really answer your question because there is much about it that is confused. What point would there be in having or producing documents that, as you say, "no one could understand?" And, how would one go about producing documents that they don't understand?

Besides, I believe you are asking the wrong questions. What you should be asking yourself is why does the KEP contain a number of non-Egyptian and non-papyri characters and sound, as well explanations that don't correctly match the right translations of the few Egyptian characters that were used in the KEP, if the KEP were intended to be used to academically translate that Book of Abraham?

Better yet, given Will's thesis and supporting evidence, which is being corroborated by trained textual critics, if portions of the Book of Abraham were translated prior to the KEP, and the KEP is dependant upon that translation, then why would the KEP be produced to academically translate what had already been translated?

It just doesn't make sense. There must be some other way to account for the non-Egyptian characters and the non-Egyptian sounds and the non-Egyptian explanations in the KEP.

As for the rest of your reasons, exegesis and hermeneutics is basically the science of letting a text interpret it's self, how on earth does changing an original text in the pen of the author lend to that?

It might help you to read the paper I attached to the thread at MADB. It will give you at least a basic level of understanding. And, I provide links if you wish to expand your understanding.

As far as pure language goes that is a straw man to support this argument, if what is written in the KEP a pure language and does what you claim why don't the current prophets dictate sacred doc's to the saints in code. The "Gospel" means good news and if Mormonism is the restored "gospel" why hide the good news of God? If it wasn't meant, the Book of Abraham, for others to read why did the print it? This is one you might want to think about Wade.

Mark

The reason the prophets today are not using the KEP is because the KEP project was abandoned only a few months after it began. The KEP was and is far from complete, and so the prophets today couldn't use it as a "pure language" beause the "pure Language" was far from being fully developed. Besides, there are reasons why the project was abandoned, and one of the key reasons is because it was no longer necessary. Something else was developed that accomplished the same dual objective, yet in a far more functional manner. I will leave you and others to guess what that "something" was.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Markk]

Wade,

Your thinking way to hard.

What point would there be in having or producing documents that, as you say, "no one could understand?"

That’s my point Wade. No one could understand the Book of Abraham in glyphs, why make a code of something you can't understand anyway?

example:

aihd sfnpo uewrp 9uwcn... why make a code of what I just wrote when no one can read what I wrote anyway?

And, how would one go about producing documents that they don't understand?

With a little imagination and a sharp pencil.

Here is the document of the apostle Paul I recently purchased that was written in Greek, I put it in code.

'-09...I am a tent maker

"m"... I Paul born in Tarsus in 28 ad

"><'bd...born of the tribe of Benjamin

//]]{... I try not to take money from other churches, but sometimes I do and I am of the Sanhedrin, a Hebrew or Hebrews.

j""""/... I have scales in my eyes

XX#<>...I have a friend named Tim, and he has a stomach problem

_-_-,,^%4##...did I mention I make tents?

What you should be asking yourself is why does the KEP contain a number of non-Egyptian and non-papyri characters and sound, as well explanations that don't correctly match the right translations of the few Egyptian characters that were used in the KEP, if the KEP were intended to be used to academically translate that Book of Abraham?

I did, twenty years ago, and it was because Joseph Smith made this stuff up, just like I just did, to show the saints that he was a seer and prophet. No one could read Egyptian and no one could call him out on this...and he knew it. Right or wrong isn't this a possibility?

Better yet, given Will's thesis and supporting evidence, which is being corroborated by trained textual critics, if portions of the Book of Abraham were translated prior to the KEP, and the KEP is dependant upon that translation, then why would the KEP be produced to academically translate what had already been translated?

Joseph Smith was a man taking advantage of people who believed he was a prophet, it was a scam Wade. I don't mean this as a slam to you, but, it is a real plausible scenario that just can not be denied. I don't expect you to believe it, but you have to admit it is a very real possible scenario.

It just doesn't make sense. There must be some other way to account for the non-Egyptian characters and the non-Egyptian sounds and the non-Egyptian explanations in the KEP

The answer is it is a scam Wade, and you have to admit this scenario is more plausible that some code system.

The reason the prophets today are not using the KEP is because the KEP project was abandoned only a few months after it began. The KEP was and is far from complete, and so the prophets today couldn't use it as a "pure language" because the "pure Language" was far from being fully developed. Besides, there are reasons why the project was abandoned, and one of the key reasons is because it was no longer necessary. Something else was developed that accomplished the same dual objective, yet in a far more functional manner. I will leave you and others to guess what that "something" was.

You don't know that, come on Wade. WS came out with the code scenario a month ago and you already know why the prophets don't use codes...think Wade. If this is indeed fact why did WS have to come up with this scenario, why didn’t the leaders of the church bring this up years ago.


take care
Mark

[_wenglund]

I love it. Supposedly they were keeping sensitive religious information hidden, and yet they proceeded to publish that same information.

Yeah, he was really trying to hide sensitive information.

This is an expected, though ignorant scoff. It not only fails to consider situations where the information may only be sensative temporarily (human history is replete with such instances--in fact, if the scoffers will take a moment to recall that in some of the sections of the D&C, the names of leaders of the church were disguised for reasons of temporary secrecy), but it also mistakenly presumes that what-all ended up in the KEP was all that was intended to go nito the KEP, whereas there is strong evidence that the project was far from being completed when it was abandoned several month after it was started. Who is to say that there wasn't other information that may have been considered worthy of more perminent hidding that would have been included in the KEP had the project continued.

This also ignores the point I made about the KEP having a dual function--a function other than hidding information.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Markk]

human history is replete with such instances--in fact, if the scoffers will take a moment to recall that in some of the sections of the D&C, the names of leaders of the church were disguised for reasons of temporary secrecy)

Wade, are you saying people didn't know who the leaders of the LDS church were at that time or couldn't find out by asking a Mormon who the leaders were? was there a "memo" issued to the saints to disguise the leaders of the church, I honestly don't know...cfr? Give me a example in human history where someone took a document written in a language that no one could read, and translate it into the original language, and the put it in a code...and all this after announcing what the document was to the folks.

Take care
MG

[_wenglund]

Hi Markk,

Perhaps you aren't doing enough thinking.

Do you realize that we are only talking about the KEP and not the Book of Abraham?

Do you realize that your thinking that the KEP was made up, doesn't conflict with Will's priority thesis and his cipher hypothesis?

Saying that the KEP was made up is to speak only to HOW the KEP were produced, whereas Will's thesis speaks to WHEN they were produced in relation to the Book of Abraham, WHAT the KEP's dependancy may have been on the Book of Abraham, and his hypothesis speaks to WHY the KEP may have been produced.

I doubt that you would get much argument from apologists were you to claim that Phelps made up the KEP characters and sounds, or borrowed characters from this papyri or that Masonic cipher, and/or borrowed this explanation from the Book of Abraham or that explanation from the D&C. Such would not negate the strong argument that the KEP were produced after portions of the Book of Abraham, the KEP was dependant on the Book of Abraham, and the purpose of the KEP was to both hide information and eventually act as an exegetical or hermeneutical methodology.

Where you would get yourself into difficulty is by asserting that the purpose of the KEP was to scam people. By so asserting, you would then be obliged to substantiate your assertion in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. Not only would this assertion make you look petty and vindictive and ridiculous, thereby undermining your credibility, but as explained earlier, it would be completely unnecessary in maintaining your unbelief in the restored gospel. But, as always, you are free to say whatever you choose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

human history is replete with such instances--in fact, if the scoffers will take a moment to recall that in some of the sections of the D&C, the names of leaders of the church were disguised for reasons of temporary secrecy)

Wade, are you saying people didn't know who the leaders of the LDS church were at that time or couldn't find out by asking a Mormon who the leaders were?

No. What I am saying is that for a short time fake names were used in published revelations and afterwords the identities were disclosed.

Give me a example in human history where someone took a document written in a language that no one could read, and translate it into the original language, and the put it in a code...and all this after announcing what the document was to the folks.

Not only does your scenerio not fit the KEP circumstances (the KEP were not translated into Egyptian. They were English explanations used in relation to a mix of Egyptian and non-Egyptian characters and non-Egyptian sounds), but your scenerio completely misses the essential point--which is, as explicitly stated, history is replete with instances of where, because of extenuating circumstances, information was temporarily keep hidden or encoded and latter made public--not the least common of which is troop placement and movements during times of war, which later become a matter of public hisotrical record.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Kishkumen]

But, let me be of some help here. If you wish to retain your unbelief in the restored gospel, that doesn't require you to make yourself look ridiculous coming up with alternative explanations for things like the KEP. All you have to do in response to apologetic theories is to say that you are unconvinced. You need not come up with a counter theory or hypothesis of your own. In fact, given you abismal track record, it would be in your interest to not float your own hypothesis, which you will then be obliged to substantiate, and will likely fail.

Really, I am just trying to make things easy for you and for me (I grow weary pointing out all the inanity).

Wade,

Please tell me what exactly any of this has to do with maintaining anyone's belief or unbelief in the divine calling of Joseph Smith as prophet of the Restoration. I double dog dare ya.

All that I see happening here is a Three Stooges act by LDS apologists who are still chasing the tail of an old critical argument when the bus has already left the station. It is obvious to me that the current discussion is one of marginal academic interest that is being tarted up by Will as the Great White Hope of Book of Abraham apologetics for the purpose of bolstering his own ego.

What does Will's missing July manuscript do that substantially helps protect the the Book of Abraham from criticism? It appears to me is that all it does do is define the sense of "catalyst" in a particular way, and I am not even persuaded that it does that. What does it do? Does it prove that the Book of Abraham is ancient? Does it prove that Joseph Smith could translate Egyptian?

Let me tell you where I stand. I am all for LDS people believing that the Book of Abraham is sacred scripture. No skin off my nose and I don't really care. Furthermore, I don't really care in the end whether Will is completely right or not. Why? Because it is ultimately unimportant. The only thing being fought out here, which is not incredibly significant in anything but a narrow academic and historical sense, is when and "how" the Book of Abraham came together.

Whether an LDS scholar claims that Joseph channeled the Book of Abraham in the first few days of July or he claims that Joseph puzzled out "Egyptian" and really worked at bringing the Book of Abraham together, with the KEP being part of that process, is neither here nor there. It is a historical question, which I pursue for historical interests (speaking for myself and probably others, like, notably, Don Bradley, faithful convert to the LDS Gospel).

What I find totally amusing is that everyone is going at this tooth and nail to accuse each other, and, I have to say, every time I see someone accused of rejecting Will's argument right now simply because they have some anti-Mormon hate agenda, I find that lame attempt at a barb completely hilarious. Because, I think there are faithful LDS scholars who are not completely convinced or even much persuaded by Will's perspective. Are they acting out of anti-Mormon hatred?

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that people's little egos and agendas have come to substitute for actually defending the LDS Church. When it is clear that Will's argument does little to show that Joseph Smith actually translated Egyptian or that the Book of Abraham is ancient, I think it is pretty obvious to all but the most head-in-the-sand apologists that something is really out of whack (or, at least, it really should be obvious).

Regards,

The Right Reverend Severus M. Kishkumen