Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Malcolm]

Simon, you seem to be inferring that there was no sexual involvement between Joseph Smith and his plural wives. Admittedly, no one can know what actually took place. We have Levi Hancock's statement, "Brother Levi, the Lord has revealed to me that it is his will that righteous men shall take righteous women even a plurality of wives that a Righteous race may be sent forth uppon the Earth preparatory to the ushering in of the Millenial Reign of our Redeemer" Quoted in Hancock, autobiography 61.

"As Joseph described the practice to Hancock, plural marriage had the millennial purpose of fashioning a righteous generation on the Eve of the Second Coming" Richard L Bushman, Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling page 326.

The purpose of the "righteous race" was to create more babies, thus creating a sizeable righteous population of saints. So it is highly likely that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his wives. There would be little point in these marriages/sealings otherwise.
Another thing worth looking at is, why were some of these marriages logged into a journal in some sort of 'code'. One would expect an honourable man to be open about his dealings, particularly with his fellow saints.

[_Themis]

The only end results that I could see as motivation are to make money, and sex. The others, like "start a religion" and "to introduce new doctrine as though it has ancient roots" are means to this end. This falls into category 1.

No it doesn't. Believers can and do have motivations for money, sex, power(religion), etc, etc ,etc. People can go to amazing lengths to believe what they want is right and from God. Joseph Smith was no exception.

Yes, because they truly believed in what they were preaching (#2).

#2 cannot be taken seriously unless you are willing to edit out the mental illness part. Now you are at least admitting people who believe regardless of whether their beliefs are true are willing to suffer and die for them.

But again, he would have tried the option when his life was on the line whether it was given to him or not.

Read above. It shows that people do maintain beliefs regards of truth when there lives are on the line. Now, show where Joseph was ever given an option to deny his beliefs to save his life. Your logic has been shown to be incorrect, but I can understand why people like you won't see the obvious in order to protect cherished beliefs.

They obviously really believed what they were teaching.

Nice to see your are making even a little progress.

My position is not that success is the only factor in determining truth. It is one of the factors, however.

This is still flawed thinking. LDS believe in an apostasy, which means the Church was having the opposite of success, so success is not dependent on a religions truth claims being accurate, and that's stating it from an LDS perspective :)

[_xolotl]

Every member, at one time or another is a convert. Both those who have been born into the faith, and those who have not must, at some point in their lives, take Moroni's promise and be truly converted.

I have to agree with Simon on this one point, every member of the church should be considered a convert or not yet converted, being born into the church or converting to it at a later time technically is irrelevant. Any member who has "received" a testimony is in fact a convert. As much as an ignoramus as Simon is, at times, he is capable of proposing a valid point even though it rarely occurs.

He often reminds me of a certain pig who learned how to drive a car and amazed the human population of a small town in Siberia. When they all gathered around to see what other amazing feats this pig was capable of they all became rather disgruntled. They watched the pig eat its own feces, vomit it all over their shoes and then lick it all up with delight. A few weeks later the pig was arrested for crashing his car into another families home, eating all their food and defecating on them while they slept. While in jail the pig was shot in the head by the very family that the pig defiled.

Now let me add Joseph Smith was the one and only Merlin. Based on my extensive research and lifelong study, all the evidence indicates he was in fact that great wizard of King Arthur fame. I know everything about him and let me tell you all about it. To those that argue against my conclusion that Smith was Merlin I reassure them all that no matter the evidence they present, they were not present during his lifetime therefore their conclusions are suspect and not valid. I of course was not present either, but all my conclusions stand because I am a self titled EXPERT on Smith and his magical adventures as the one and only Merlin. I even have academic credentials that I enjoy talking about because in my mind they supersede every bit of sloppy research and ignorant conclusions I often come up with, even if they are not mine, but that of others invested and paid to prove and defend the positions of Smith being the one and only Merlin.

[_harmony]

Now let me add Joseph Smith was the one and only Merlin. Based on my extensive research and lifelong study, all the evidence indicates he was in fact that great wizard of King Arthur fame. I know everything about him and let me tell you all about it. To those that argue against my conclusion that Smith was Merlin I reassure them all that no matter the evidence they present, they were not present during his lifetime therefore their conclusions are suspect and not valid. I of course was not present either, but all my conclusions stand because I am a self titled EXPERT on Smith and his magical adventures as the one and only Merlin. I even have academic credentials that I enjoy talking about because in my mind they supersede every bit of sloppy research and ignorant conclusions I often come up with, even if they are not mine, but that of others invested and paid to prove and defend the positions of Smith being the one and only Merlin.

Okay, THAT was funny!

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon, you seem to be inferring that there was no sexual involvement between Joseph Smith and his plural wives.

If you believe this, then you have not read the thread.

[_Tchild]

Simon, you seem to be inferring that there was no sexual involvement between Joseph Smith and his plural wives.

If you believe this, then you have not read the thread.

Tis true. Simon has stated that it was likely that J. Smith consumated his relationships.

For believers, if the edict to practice polygamy originated with God, it doesn't matter how you slice or dice the situation, Joseph remains validated in his actions.

So Simon concedes that J.S. potentially had sexual relations. Such a concession does not impugn Joseph Smith in the slightest from the believer's POV.(remember the God command heirarchy above?)

BCspace has argued very similarly in the past, parsing the meaning of adultery, sexual relations and marriage due to the primary rationale that polygamy/plural marriage was all God directed.

[_xolotl]

BCspace has argued very similarly in the past, parsing the meaning of adultery, sexual relations and marriage due to the primary rationale that polygamy/plural marriage was all God directed.

BCspace and Simon were pre-ordained to discuss "official doctrine" on MDB.

[_thews]

Simon,
Your logic in inherently flawed as you continue to ignore everything that doesn’t bode well to Joseph Smith being a prophet of God. When it comes to polygamy and Joseph Smith having sex with his many wives, you claim that “we just don’t know” when there’s overwhelming evidence to include the Sarah Ann Whitney letter where Joseph Smith was obviously cheating on Emma behind her back.

Using your argument regarding the evidence, consider the following facts:
1) Joseph Smith found his first seer stone using the green seer stone of Sally Chase, a known necromancer.
2) Joseph Smith using his seer stones before the supposed angels visited him to “see” treasure and treasure guardians moving the treasure beneath the ground when it wasn’t found.
3) After the lost 116 pages were supposedly stolen by Satan’s minions, the Nephite Interpreters/Urim and Thummim were taken back as part of the punishment, leaving only Joseph Smith seer stones which he used along with his stove-pipe hat. The Book of Commandments says nothing of the U&T, yet The D&C 10:1 inserts an intentionally vague reference to the U&T in 1833, or three years after the Book of Mormon was written.
4) The letter to Sarah Ann Whitney by Joseph Smith clearly dictates the only condition it is not safe is if Emma was there. As a supposed prophet of God, this would mean that Joseph Smith was cheating on his wife knowing God was watching his every move.
5) The Book of Abraham translations are wrong and do not depict anything about Abraham, but their intent was to provide the mummy that they were inserted into passages from the book of the dead.
6) The Book of Mormon is a myth and there isn’t one single artifact anywhere on the planet to support its historicity, even though we know where Zelph was found. If Zelph was indeed slain in battle, there would be obvious artifacts to support it.
7) Joseph Smith Jupiter talisman along with all the other “folk” magic he believed in is not Christian in any way shape or form, and neither is the Masonic ceremonies which are clearly a part of Mormonism.
In considering the above 7 facts, what does logic dictate? Using your arguments, you’ll probably attempt to find minute holes in the above facts. Things like interpreting the Sarah Ann Whitney letter to find some alternate version against what it actually says, or claiming that Joseph Smith didn’t own the Jupiter talisman, even though it came from a collection of his things and Emma said it was one of his prized possessions.

As you focus on what isn’t rather than what is in arguments from silence on what can or can’t be proven back in 1822, what you simply cannot ignore is that seer stones and pagan doctrine are the sources of Mormon doctrine and they are not Christian (see Deuteronomy 18). In order for critical thought to accept Mormonism as the truth, then one has to believe that Jesus Christ chose the occult to convey his “restored” doctrine. In opposition, Joseph Smith’s failed prophecies are clearly an indicator of a false prophet according to the Bible.

To summarize, since you claim to be a critical thinker, which really makes the most sense based on the actual evidence? Is it that Joseph Smith’s claims are supported by the evidence, or does the evidence clearly point to Joseph Smith being a con man? If your logical conclusion is that the evidence points to Joseph Smith being an actual prophet of God, then you believe occult seer stones found through the green stone of a necromancer and pagan doctrine are vehicles chosen by Jesus Christ to convey his restored doctrine. How can you force that square peg into the round hole?

[_Willy Law]

Tis true. Simon has stated that it was likely that J. Smith consumated his relationships.
.

And that Joseph's sperm was plentiful and potent.

[_AtticusFinch]

Tis true. Simon has stated that it was likely that J. Smith consumated his relationships.
.

And that Joseph's sperm was plentiful and potent.

Breaking News: Bill Clinton heard that, to cover his infidelity, Joe implimented polygamy saying it was from God. After hearing it, Bill Clinton slapped himself on the forehead and exclaimed, "why didn't I think of that?"