Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

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_Darth J
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Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Darth J »

Over on Runtu's "do you hate the Church?" thread, Runtu said that he does not begrudge General Authorities being paid. Neither do I. But I don't begrudge any church having a paid ministry if it is providing comfort and meaning to parishioners. I think the problem with priestcraft is when you are doing it only for money. The simple fact that someone is paid to be a minister does not make them insincere anymore than paying police means we don't really care about law and order, or paying firefighters means we don't really care about saving people and their homes, etc. (Remember, I'm talking about sincere ministers who have something to offer the people in their churches, not Jimmy Swaggart or Benny Hinn.)

Runtu also said the following, with which I also agree:

Runtu wrote: For what it's worth, I think it's as much a distortion to see the GAs as these humble guys making do on a modest stipend as it is to portray them as fatcats living off the largesse of the membership.


harmony and some others have mentioned the Church trying to have it both ways by claiming that we are better than other churches because we don't have a paid ministry. But the LDS Church does in fact have a paid ministry with General Authorties (and mission presidents), and that's before we even talk about CES employees, who are paid to teach the Church's teachings. (Look! Chiasmus!) And if it's supposedly wrong to have a paid ministry on a local level (which the Church never tires of saying), then the Church has failed to articulate why it is okay to have a paid ministry on a church-wide level.

I can't decide what movie I feel like watching right now, so I'm starting a thread about something I do begrudge. That something is the habit church leaders have of making misleading statements about having a paid ministry in order to make the LDS Church look superior to all them other religions that preach for "filthy lucre." This is particularly disingenuous because such statements about not having a paid ministry have been made by men who are paid to minister. Here are some examples:

Thomas S. Monson
May 2006 Ensign

I was visiting with the East German state secretary, Minister Gysi. At that time our temple at Freiberg, in East Germany, was under construction, along with two or three meetinghouses. Minister Gysi and I visited on a number of subjects, including our worldwide building program. He then asked, “Why is your church so wealthy that you can afford to build buildings in our country and throughout the world? How do you get your money?”

I answered that the Church is not wealthy but that we follow the ancient biblical principle of tithing, which principle is reemphasized in our modern scripture. I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg.


Gordon B. Hinckley
November 2002 Ensign

We are a Church of lay leadership. What a remarkable and wonderful thing that is. It must ever remain so. It must never move in the direction of an extensive paid ministry.

Boyd K. Packer
September 1979 Liahona

In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches.

Boyd K. Packer
November 2007 Ensign

The Church has no professional clergy. The call to leadership positions worldwide is drawn from the congregation. We have no seminaries for the training of professional leaders.
[Editor's note: what did Boyd K. Packer do for a living before he became a General Authority?] Everything that is done in the Church—the leading, the teaching, the calling, the ordaining, the praying, the singing, the preparation of the sacrament, the counseling, and everything else—is done by ordinary members, the “weak things of the world.”

We see in the Christian churches their struggle to fill the need for clergy. We do not have that problem. Once the gospel is preached and the Church is organized, there is an inexhaustible supply of faithful brothers and sisters who have that testimony and are willing to answer the call to serve.


Boyd K. Packer (again!)
November 1985 Ensign

The Lord said that “every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world.” (D&C 1:20). So humble men and women, and even young people, not professionally trained for the ministry, carry on the work of the Lord—many of us with little more than the spiritual conviction that it is true.

Surely we must appear at times to be very amateurish when compared to the professional clergy of other churches.


Boyd K. Packer (that's right: a man who has been paid to teach Mormonism for approximately 6 decades continuously insists that we have no paid ministry)
November 1974 Ensign

“Well, we believe in helping one another. If someone is in need or ill or out of work or in trouble, we are organized to assist, and you would be expected to help.”

“Did they also tell you that we have no professional clergy? All of us contribute our time, our talents, our means, and travel—all to help the work. And we’re not paid for it in money.”


Gospel Principles
Chapter 28: Service

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no professional clergy, so the lay members must carry on all of the activities of the Church.

Sometimes we get statements about the Church not having a paid ministry at "the congregational level." This question-begging statement is also misleading, since it does not address a paid ministry at "above the congregational level" and because it fails to address why a parish priest is corrupt because he is paid a salary but General Authorities are virtuous when they are paid a salary.

Dallin H. Oaks
November 2002 Ensign

We have a great tradition of unselfish service in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Indeed, one of the distinguishing characteristics of this Church is the fact that we have no paid or professional clergy in our thousands of local congregations and in the regional stakes, districts, and missions that oversee them. As an essential part of God’s plan for His children, the leadership and work of His Church is provided by His children who give their time freely for the service of God and their fellowmen.

In summary:

pro·fes·sion·al

–adjective

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3 .appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
_MsJack
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _MsJack »

Hearing LDS people put down other churches over "priestcraft" is definitely a pet peeve of mine. My own attitude is that if it constitutes full-time work so that you have no other means of livelihood, you should probably get paid for it. If it constitutes part-time work so that you are prevented from having a separate full-time job, you should also probably get paid for it. So I don't have a problem with LDS apostles, prophets, and seventies getting paid; I only have a problem with misleading statements that ignore this fact.

On the other hand, something that a lot of LDS people don't realize is that other churches do have extensive lay ministries. At my own church, the main paid positions are the senior pastor, the worship leader, the office assistant, and the children's ministry director. There might also be an intern or two drawing a check.

But the leadership team (i. e. our board of elders), the youth leaders, the Sunday school instructors, the nursery workers, the children's ministry leaders, the men's ministry leaders, the women's ministry leaders, the hospitality team, the worship aesthetics team, the worship team, the audio/video team, the landscaping team, the custodial team, the missions team, the team that arranges local charitable service projects--those are all unpaid positions.

Some of the big churches will sometimes hire people for some of those positions. For example, I was asked to help put the word out among the female M. Div. students here at TEDS that one of the local churches was looking to hire a woman to oversee its women's ministry.

But usually a church that is the size of the average LDS ward will have minimal paid staff.

by the way, "Why don't Mormons have paid clergy?" is one of the questions that members can answer on their Mormon.org profile. If you browse the profiles there, you'll see what I mean about most Mormons not realizing that other churches have plenty of lay "callings," too.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Dr. Shades »

MsJack:

What the Hell is a "worship aesthetics team?"
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_MsJack
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _MsJack »

Dr. Shades wrote:What the Hell is a "worship aesthetics team?"

LOL. I found myself asking the same question when I saw it on the list of stuff that people at my church do . . .

Anyways, you know how women in Relief Society will make really pretty centerpieces for the table in the Relief Society room?

My church basically has people who do that all over the church. The chapel, the foyers, even the bathrooms have colored stones and unlit scented candles on the counters.

This was our Communion table near Christmas time last year:

Image

So, these are the people who make the building pretty and church-ie.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jack,

Does your worship leader also direct the choir?
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_MsJack
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _MsJack »

Our congregation is small (100-150 members) and we don't have a choir. However, I imagine that the worship leader would if we did.

When I attended Rock Canyon Assembly of God in Provo, there was a worship pastor for my first two years there, and he was also the choir director.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Willy Law
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Willy Law »

Darth J wrote:I answered that the Church is not wealthy


3billiondollarmallbuilder says what?
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
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_Joseph
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Joseph »

"It must never move in the direction of an extensive paid ministry." Gordon B. Hinckley.

GordyB has left wiggle room here with 'extensive paid ministry' as the out. A backdoor admission of a paid ministry, just not a big time one.

In defense of Boyd Packer(even as I don't like him personally), Seminary teacher in LDS land is not a ministry position as is commonly referred to in many churches. It is a poorly paid(for the most part) teaching position to help younger LDS members learn something of the teachings. It is no a leadership position like Bishop or similar. Though many seminary and institute teachers come to occupy a more important role in the lives of these kids than their Bishops and other 'ministers' they are not generally thought of as 'paid ministry'. A small difference but a bit more honest than Hinckley with his 'out' catchphrase in his statement.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Jersey Girl »

DJ
That something is the habit church leaders have of making misleading statements about having a paid ministry in order to make the LDS Church look superior to all them other religions that preach for "filthy lucre."


Us vs Them reply...

Our pastors have earned PhD's. I should think they were entitled to a bit of "filthy lucre" for their efforts.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Professional Clergy Three-Card Monte

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I have no problem with a paid ministry for full time clergy.

I have no problem with GAs getting paid or MPs as well. I do not think GAs should have exorbitant pay but certainly for the time and effort they put forth it should be a reasonable sum.

I do not have a problem that Elder Packer bought a home 40 years or more with that pay tha due to market forces may be worth a million dollars today. It would be noble though for him to leave the home to the Church upon his and his wife's death so they could sell it and use the proceeds for Church operations.

I would be happy with a full time paid bishop or SP that got paid too.

I think bishops and SPs ought to at least be reimbursed some for their out of pocket costs such as travel and phone costs or other such things.

There was a time that a bishop and SP actually did get a small stipend to cover such costs and there is even a travel reimbursement available from the stake but the amount is limited and really onerous to obtain (lots of paper work) so most people do not go after it.

And in fact, technically the leaders are correct about a non paid clergy at least for the general operation of the Church. 99.5% of the LDS Church ministry is not paid. It is really a marvelous thing when you think about it. But it would be better to state that the local churches operate with no paid ministry and the top leaders who are full time are paid. And they should not scorn other Churches for having a paid ministry.

But one thing that really pissed me off is that the Church has cut back once again on their custodial and facility maintenance staff and want members, who already run the Church to clean the place. And recently they have put all the cleaning and out door upkeep on the members and cut back more on the FM personnel. The only thing FM will now do for a ward building is repair work that members can't do.

Maybe City Creek really has put a stress on Church finances.
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