May be old question in general, but

[_Darth J]

@ bcspace:

Thank you for your ongoing presentism in asserting that current LDS policy about official publication has any meaning whatsoever before the Correlation Committee was started, so that a group of paid church employees could sit around an office and decide when a General Authority was speaking as a man and when he was speaking as a prophet.

If you have any basis whatsoever to indicate that your ideas about "official doctrine" were applicable before the Correlation Committee came into existence, please refer to that basis into this thread.

Please note that your say-so is not a factual basis for anything, unless your subjective experience or opinion is the topic of discussion (which it is not in this thread).

[_cambreckenridge]

In truth LDS have continued to work on refining the doctrine. I suppose that means things change. I suppose that means ideas of the past are consisdered uninformed speculation these days. Its just how it is. its kinda nice in a way. We're free and open to consider new insights and figure out ways to incorporate those into our beliefs.

I appreciate your input and agree with it overall. Continuing revelation is a great thing, as is accepting truth wherever we find it, I totally agree. Revelation to help refine doctrine, also.

In the case of the BY/Slavery statement, I think it was much more than just an idea of the past that can be labeled uninformed speculation these days because it was given as a direct answer to a question about the position of the Church, & deals with basic definitions of an entire group of spirits who came to Earth in a broad racial group.

It wasn't refined by Pres. Kimball, it was entirely refuted, and it was the foundation for over a century of religiously justified bigotry. That hurts.

Hey, since BY's concept of blacks & slavery & lesser quality of spirits was speculation & wrong, is it possible that denying the priesthood to them was a practice based on uninformed speculation, too?

Pres. Kimball said that we just don't yet know why God denied the priesthood to that particular group. That indicates Pres. Kimball did believe that part of the issue was divine revelation. I'll have to look that up & refresh my memory as to when/who/what the priesthood ban was revealed. If it came from Brigham Young, that'd open up a whole 'nother hard to understand can of worms.

[Guest]

Part 2 of @bcspace:

Boyd K. Packer wrote a non-official-doctrinal book called Teach Ye Diligently.

http://deseretbook.com/Teach-Ye-Diligen ... /i/2076593

It is not officially published by the Church, and therefore is not official doctrine.

However, numerous official publications of the Church have cited Teach Ye Diligently as an authoritative source. Some examples of these are quoted below.

You have repeatedly failed to explain the mechanism by which not-official doctrine becomes a source of official doctrine. Please provide your explanation in this thread. Also, please refer only to official doctrine in explaining how not-official doctrine become official doctrine, as I am not interested in ipse dixit or argument by assertion.

Examples of unofficial doctrine in Teach Ye Diligently becoming official doctrine:

"Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood: Basic Manual for Priesthood Holders, Part A"
Teaching Modesty and Virtue in the Home

Elder Boyd K. Packer, in speaking about the moral values of modesty and virtue, said: “The responsibility and the right to teach these sacred [things] rest with the parents in the home. I do not believe that it is the responsibility of the public schools, nor is it the responsibility of the organizations of the Church. The contribution of the Church in this respect is to teach parents the standards of morality that the Lord has revealed and to assist them in their responsibility of teaching these sacred subjects to their children” (Teach Ye Diligently [1975], 256).......
Teaching modesty and virtue requires the guidance of the Spirit. Elder Boyd K. Packer said, “If there is one essential ingredient for the teaching of moral and spiritual values, … it is to have the Spirit of the Lord with us as we teach” (Teach Ye Diligently [1975], 272).

It is also essential to approach the subject with reverence and humility. Elder Packer’s approach is a good example of one way to teach modesty and virtue in a very reverent way:

“There was provided in our physical bodies, and this is sacred, a power of creation. A light, so to speak, that has the power to kindle other lights. This gift is to be used only within the sacred bonds of marriage. Through the exercise of this power of creation, a mortal body may be conceived, a spirit enter into it, and a new soul born into this life.

“This power is good. It can create and sustain family life, and it is in family life that we find the fountains of happiness. It is given to virtually every individual who is born into mortality. It is a sacred and significant power. …

“You are growing up in a society where before you is the constant invitation to tamper with these sacred powers. … Do not let anyone at all touch or handle your body, not anyone! Those who tell you otherwise proselyte you to share their guilt. We teach you to maintain your innocence. … The only righteous use of this sacred power is within the covenant of marriage. Never misuse these sacred powers” (Teach Ye Diligently [1975], 259, 262).
]

Boyd K. Packer in the Ensign, quoting himself:


“You do not have to sneak up behind this spiritually experienced youth and whisper religion in [their] ears; you can come right out, face to face, and talk with [them]. … You can bring these truths to [them] openly. … Youth may prove to be not more fearful of them than you are. There is no need for gradual approaches” (“The Charted Course of the Church in Education” in Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently, rev. ed. [1991], 365, 373–74).

The Ensign, again:

In like manner, we as teachers of the gospel must not think of ourselves as being lazy when we put our children or our students to work. One of the most valuable things we will ever do is to teach them how to study the gospel themselves. “This church relies on individual testimony. Each must earn his own.” (Elder Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently, p. 208. See also “Self-Reliance,” IM April 1976, p. 21, for valuable insights on this subject.)

Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood: Basic Manual for Priesthood Holders, Part A

Elder Boyd K. Packer wrote: “Every member of the Church teaches for virtually his whole lifetime. … We have teachers serving in all the organizations of the Church. A great deal of teaching is done in the priesthood quorums; indeed, all priesthood holders are eligible for appointment as priesthood home teachers. … The Church moves forward sustained by the power of the teaching that is accomplished. The work of the Kingdom is impeded if teaching is not efficiently done” (Teach Ye Diligently [1975], 2–3).

New Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual

Elder Boyd K. Packer counseled: “It is essential for a teacher to understand that people are basically good. It is essential to know that their tendency is to do the thing that is right. Such an exalted thought is productive of faith. It makes all the difference when we stand before our own children or go before a class of young people to teach them” (Teach Ye Diligently [1975], 73).

Improving Gospel Teaching: A Leader’s Guide
Gospel Teaching in the Church

Elder Boyd K. Packer said: “The prophet is a teacher; his counselors are teachers; the General Authorities are teachers. Stake presidents and mission presidents are teachers; high councilors and quorum presidents are teachers; bishops are teachers; and so through all of the organizations of the Church. The Church moves forward sustained by the power of the teaching that is accomplished” (Teach Ye Diligently [1991], 3–4).

March 1981 Ensign
Teaching Morality to Your Children

Young teenagers, for example, deserve to know that neither the body itself nor any of the gifts of God which go with the body are inherently evil. This has been an apostate doctrine of some religions. But Elder Boyd K. Packer reminds us: “How glorious it is to have the revealed word of God, to know that we have a child-parent relationship with Him. If we are of His family, we have inherited the tendency to be good, not evil. We are sons and daughters of God.” (Teach Ye Diligently, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1975, p. 72.)

Young Women Manual 3
Each Person Is Divine and Eternal

Explain that the mortal body, represented by the glove, covers a spirit child of God, represented by the hand. The outside coverings, our physical bodies, are as different as gloves, but inside we are all eternal spirit children of our Heavenly Father, created in his image. (See Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1975], pp. 230–37.).........
Have the assigned class member relate the following story of a seminary teacher who caused a miracle to happen.

“There was a girl in one seminary class who seemed to be helpless and almost hopeless. I tried to encourage her and draw her out; I sensed that she wanted desperately to belong and to do something. But when she was asked to respond, give a prayer, or read a scripture, she would struggle for a while and then start to cry and return to her seat. There was some sympathy on the part of the class for her, but it is also true that there were some students who were often brutal in their comments.

“She almost never combed her hair, she had very poor clothing, and she frequently wore mismatched socks, if she wore any at all. If she arrived for class a little early, the chairs on either side of her would almost invariably be empty. If she got to class late, she could sit by someone because that would be the only seat open.

“I knew enough about her background to understand why she was the way she was. Her mother was a widow with almost no income.

“In that class were the student-body president of the high school and also a girl who had been elected the beauty queen. Besides being very handsome and intelligent students, they were talented otherwise and involved in many activities.

“One day I called the two of them into my office and asked if they would like to perform a miracle. They were interested. I told them some miracles were a little slow in developing, but they were miracles nevertheless. We then talked a little bit about the girl, and I made assignments. The student-body president was to smile and speak to her every time he saw her around school. That was all. He didn’t have to take her on a date; he didn’t have to stop and talk to her; he didn’t have to associate beyond that or single her out—merely the happy, encouraging ‘I think you’re great’ or ‘Hello, how are you today?’

“The beauty queen accepted the assignment of walking with the girl across the road from the high school to the seminary. That was all. She didn’t have to include her in her circle of friends other than to walk to and from the seminary every day. She would simply hurry to catch up with her or slow down to wait for her when they were coming across the street and just talk about whatever she wanted to talk about.

“The two of them went about their tasks quietly but enthusiastically, saying not a word to anyone else. The miracle was not long in coming. One day I knew there was something different about the girl. It took me most of the class period to figure out what it was. And then I saw what it was. She had combed her hair that day. That was an event!

“Over the next month or two the transformation continued. Our beauty queen became friendly and chatty with her during that time. She could never walk with her alone because she had her own friends following her. And so other girls were included in the group, and soon the girl was surrounded for those few minutes each day with the most popular girls at school.

“There are so many interesting details that could be related about the miracle. Our wallflower transformed herself, went to college, found good employment, married in the temple, and those who know her would never believe the ugly duckling of her youth” (Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1975], pp. 149–50).


The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part B
Purity of Thought

Elder Boyd K. Packer explained what we can do to control our thoughts:

“The mind is like a stage—the curtain is always up except when we are asleep. There is always some act being performed on that stage. …

“Have you noticed that without any real intent on your part, … a shady little thought may creep in from the wings and attract your attention? These delinquent thoughts will try to upstage everybody.

“If you permit them to go on, all thoughts of any virtue will leave the stage. You will be left, because you consented to it, to the influence of unrighteous thoughts. … They may enact a theme of bitterness, jealousy, or hatred. They may be vulgar, immoral, or even depraved. …

“What do you do at a time like that, when the stage of your mind is commandeered by the imps of unclean thinking? …

“If you can control your thoughts, you can overcome habits—even degrading, personal habits. If you can learn to master them, you will have a happy life. …

“I would teach you this. Choose from among the sacred music of the Church a favorite hymn. … Go over it carefully in your mind. Memorize it. Even though you have had no musical training, you can think through a hymn.

“Now, use this hymn as the place for your thoughts to go. Make it your emergency channel. Whenever you find that these shady actors have slipped from the sidelines of your thinking onto the stage of your mind, put on this record [of a hymn]. …

“As the music begins and as the words form in your mind, the unworthy thoughts will slip shamefully away. The hymn will change the whole mood on the stage of your mind. Because it is uplifting and clean, the baser thoughts will disappear. …

“Once you learn to clear the stage of your mind from unworthy thoughts, keep it busy with learning worthwhile things. … Keep busy with things that are righteous” (Teach Ye Diligently [1975], 46–47)

Primary 2: Choose the Right A
I Am a Child of God

Place a glove on the table. Explain that even though the glove is shaped like a hand, it cannot move like a hand because it is not alive. When a hand is placed in the glove, then the glove can move. Put your hand into the glove and wiggle your fingers. Explain that the glove is like a physical body, and the hand is like a spirit. Our bodies cannot move without our spirits inside them. Our spirits cannot be seen inside our bodies, just as the hand inside the glove cannot be seen. (See Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1975], pp. 231–33.)

Family Home Evening Resource Book
Chastity

Read and discuss the following quotation: “Much of the happiness that may come to you in this life will depend on how you use this sacred power of creation” (Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1975], p. 259). Challenge family members to think of their future children whenever they are faced with a moral decision.

[_Darth J]

It wasn't refined by Pres. Kimball, it was entirely refuted, and it was the foundation for over a century of religiously justified bigotry. That hurts.

CFR for the LDS Church ever repudiating its teachings about the curse of Cain.

[_Jason Bourne]

Completely incorrect. In addition, BY taught Adam Sr/Jr, not any sort of Adam-God. Never was doctrine though by any stretch of the imagination.

You know what. I agree that AG was never official doctrine of the church. But is is an out right lie to say BY never taught it. And it is Elden Watson who says BY taught Adam S/Jr. You really have to stretch what BY said to make that one work.

But I will concede this to you if you find just ONE quote by Brigham that he calls Adam an Adam Sr and an Adam Jr.

Till then you have lost this one.

[_Quasimodo]

broad racial group.
Pres. Kimball said that we just don't yet know why God denied the priesthood to that particular group. That indicates Pres. Kimball did believe that part of the issue was divine revelation. I'll have to look that up & refresh my memory as to when/who/what the priesthood ban was revealed. If it came from Brigham Young, that'd open up a whole 'nother hard to understand can of worms.

It's the same can of worms as Joseph's polygamy conundrum. The religious tenet of polygamy (on Earth) was rescinded for political reasons.

Clearly, it was Smith's proclamation from God that polygamy be practiced on Earth (evidenced by his multiple wives). If revelations in 1890 made clear that earthly polygamy was no longer God's wish, who made the mistake? God, Joseph or Wilford Woodruff?

If God was wrong, how can one put faith in a fallible God?

If Joseph was wrong, how can one believe that the LDS church is the one, true church?

If Woodruff was wrong, Mormons should still be polygamists.

I don't see any other options.

All this same logic applies to Brigham's denial of the Priesthood to Black Africans.

[_Darth J]

Completely incorrect. In addition, BY taught Adam Sr/Jr, not any sort of Adam-God. Never was doctrine though by any stretch of the imagination.

You know what. I agree that AG was never official doctrine of the church. But is is an out right lie to say BY never taught it. And it is Elden Watson who says BY taught Adam S/Jr. You really have to stretch what BY said to make that one work.

But I will concede this to you if you find just ONE quote by Brigham that he calls Adam an Adam Sr and an Adam Jr.

Till then you have lost this one.

I wonder if all those people getting their endowments at the St. George Temple were informed that the Lecture at the Veil was just a matter of opinion.

By the way, since the Millennial Star was an official church publication, and the Adam-God idea was taught in the Millennial Star, Adam-God passes bcspace's otherwise anachronistic test for official doctrine.

[_Buffalo]

I wonder if all those people getting their endowments at the St. George Temple were informed that the Lecture at the Veil was just a matter of opinion.

By the way, since the Millennial Star was an official church publication, and the Adam-God idea was taught in the Millennial Star, Adam-God passes bcspace's otherwise anachronistic test for official doctrine.

Nice catch! Adam-God was official doctrine!

[_Jason Bourne]

The church has no doctrine.

Are you Blake Ostler?

[_brade]

They way to tell if something is doctrine is if it's published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

BCspace, I know this may seem silly, and I think I asked you this before but you never responded, but I just want to be clear. The somethings that can be doctrine are statements, as in declarative statements, right? The Church publishes pictures, questions, and on their website, videos, and music; and surely, say, questions, like 'How does serving others make you feel?', are not doctrine. Right?