All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

[_Jersey Girl]

Buff,

Could you answer this question? You might have missed it in my post.

What is your understanding if the use of the term EL within the context of Judaism?

ETA: I don't think that my question is all that clear, what does "EL" refer to in the Old Testament?

Is that better?

[_Fence Sitter]

Buffalo,

I do not disagree with you but if as a believer in (insert religion or God of choice here) I can look around the rest of the world and assume that somehow I have God figured out and everyone else is wrong, then putting the false Gods of the past into my simplistic world view is a piece of cake.

[_Buffalo]

Buff,

Could you answer this question? You might have missed it in my post.

What is your understanding if the use of the term EL within the context of Judaism?

ETA: I don't think that my question is all that clear, what does "EL" refer to in the Old Testament?

Is that better?

There are two usages:

1. Referring to Israel's first God (stolen from the Canaanites), El, a specific person
2. Generic: God.

Genesis 33:20
And there he built an altar, and proclaimed “El is the god of Israel.”

[_Buffalo]

Buffalo,

I do not disagree with you but if as a believer in (insert religion or God of choice here) I can look around the rest of the world and assume that somehow I have God figured out and everyone else is wrong, then putting the false Gods of the past into my simplistic world view is a piece of cake.

It's very difficult to break out of conditioned beliefs and thought patterns, granted. That's why you see apologists of every religion making very convoluted defenses instead of accepting the simplest, most obvious explanation.

[_Some Schmo]

It should raise an alarm that Christians are worshiping a God who started his career as a pagan tyrant, and who was gradually reformed and revised over thousands of years. The implication is, obviously, that the God is a fictitious character. In fact, this would be the obvious conclusion for anyone to make, sans a preexisting faith in that god.

Couldn't it be understood as the evolution of Man's understanding and ever changing relationship with God?

Well, that would be the cheesy apologetic, yeah.

Nobody would think that, however, if their investment in faith didn't pretty much demand it.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Occam's razor makes us chose the simplest explanation - that El, like many other mythological figures, was altered to suit the changing temperament and needs of his worshipers.

No no, The razor isn’t a metaphysical method that can tell us if entity X exists or not or what it is like. The key phrase in the razor is “ all things being equal” (ceteris paribus), and this is simply not the case for ancient history.

El became civilized only as his worshipers became civilized. El was constantly remade in the image of the people who worshiped him. El went from a brash figure whose sexual exploits with the goddesses were solemnized in sacred poetry, to a sexless, touchy-feely father figure who really cares about everything you care about. And yet, he's also unchanging!

If God is always being remade into the image of people worshiping him, it would imply that that touchy feely image is just a phase as well. If that’s the case, I don’t see that as proof of God’s unchanging nature being false, just that man can never correctly ascertain the correct nature.

The things you bring up about Israel’s past may be shocking to people who are biblically illiterate (that being most people), but it isn’t some lethal objection to Christianity or Judaism, it just forces believers to take up a more nuanced conception of God and the role of scriptures.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Well, that would be the cheesy apologetic, yeah.

No, it's not, actually.

Nobody would think that, however, if their investment in faith didn't pretty much demand it.

People around the Mediterranean world were thinking this 200 years before Christ, at least.

[_Some Schmo]

Well, that would be the cheesy apologetic, yeah.

No, it's not, actually.

Sure sounds like one to me.

Nobody would think that, however, if their investment in faith didn't pretty much demand it.

People around the Mediterranean world were thinking this 200 years before Christ, at least.

And?

I never claimed apologetics are a recent phenomenon. In fact, I assume that the vast majority of what passes for religion today is yesteryear's apologetics.

[_Jersey Girl]

There are two usages:

1. Referring to Israel's first God (stolen from the Canaanites), El, a specific person
2. Generic: God.

Good enough! Why do you choose to use the word "stolen"? The stories of the Old Testament describe the development of a transition in thinking with regards to God belief. In all of your posts, I see no mention of Moloch or Baal, who were also identified as "EL". When you read the Old Testament, how do you distinguish between which EL a passage is refering to?

In your reply regarding Jesus, why no mention of Mithraism?

Genesis 33:20
And there he built an altar, and proclaimed “El is the god of Israel.”

Which version of "EL" do you see this as referring to?

The Bible makes no secret of describing the emergence of what one might call, traditional Christianity and/or Judaism. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me'". Doesn't that ring a bell with you?

People who read and research the Bible, are well familiar with these stories as well as the references to Pagan rites/rituals that were adapted into both Christianity and Judaism.

Why do you seem to think this is news?

[_MrStakhanovite]

And?

And that shows people came to that conclusion on their own before it was demanded by the investment of their faith.