Will Schryver's Benefactor

[_Kishkumen]

If you didn't mean your original comment as a subtle jab at Schryver, then I guess I'm aiming at nothing. I guess this entire side conversation has been nothing but a misunderstanding between us.

It actually wasn't. I was trying to caution people against the contradiction of complaining about the closed nature of the LDS Church only to complain about opening the records to any Tom, Dick, or Harry. I respect Elder Jensen. I think he is an intelligent and reasonable guy. I wouldn't take his approval of Will's proposal as a negative comment on either Elder Jensen or the proposal. I just think that Elder Jensen's role is critical here. A man like him is probably liked and trusted by his superiors. He's a sharp guy.

[_Nomad]

I would not imbue Will's research with 'merit and promise' by reason of the fact he was given access to the KEP.

You wouldn't find merit in his research if an angel with a flaming sword appeared and told you so.

I would say that the fact access was given to a non-academic shows (a) Will has connections, such as through Dallin D Oaks ...

Which Schryver has explicitly denied. Not only that, but it's wholly illogical, if you ask me. Do you really think that Dallin H. is going to pull strings for someone he doesn't know, in a matter of some controversy, just because his kid says something like, "Hey, I've got a friend who's got some interesting ideas about all this Book of Abraham stuff. You should give him all those images of the papyri and KEP so he can save the church from 'intellectual embarrassment.'" Sorry, sounds ridiculous to me. But you're one of the guys who buys in to all this cloak and dagger conspiracy stuff, so I guess you can find just about anything believable.

... and/or (b) how desperate the FP/12 are for finding a 'new' theory that will somehow save BoAbr from the intellectual embarrassment that it is.

So ... let's turn it over to a non-scholar we know nothing about. He'll save the day!

Just as senseless as your first idea. I think you need to go back to the drawing board and try again.

[_Runtu]

You wouldn't find merit in his research if an angel with a flaming sword appeared and told you so.

I have reserved judgment on Will's research for one reason only: when I listened to the presentation, I drew up a list of questions that needed to be answered before Will's conclusions made sense, and I sent these questions to Will. Until these unanswered questions are addressed (and Will has steadfastly ignored my questions), I can't come to any hard conclusions.

Which Schryver has explicitly denied. Not only that, but it's wholly illogical, if you ask me. Do you really think that Dallin H. is going to pull strings for someone he doesn't know, in a matter of some controversy, just because his kid says something like, "Hey, I've got a friend who's got some interesting ideas about all this Book of Abraham stuff. You should give him all those images of the papyri and KEP so he can save the church from 'intellectual embarrassment.'" Sorry, sounds ridiculous to me. But you're one of the guys who buys in to all this cloak and dagger conspiracy stuff, so I guess you can find just about anything believable.

I have no idea how Will got access to the KEP. It's not important, is it?

So ... let's turn it over to a non-scholar we know nothing about. He'll save the day!

Just as senseless as your first idea. I think you need to go back to the drawing board and try again.

I would guess that someone, somewhere found merit in Will's research, and that's what got him the access. I would not be surprised that Will's connections helped things move along, but I have no idea. Don't much care.

[_Nomad]

If you didn't mean your original comment as a subtle jab at Schryver, then I guess I'm aiming at nothing. I guess this entire side conversation has been nothing but a misunderstanding between us.

It actually wasn't. I was trying to caution people against the contradiction of complaining about the closed nature of the LDS Church only to complain about opening the records to any Tom, Dick, or Harry. I respect Elder Jensen. I think he is an intelligent and reasonable guy. I wouldn't take his approval of Will's proposal as a negative comment on either Elder Jensen or the proposal. I just think that Elder Jensen's role is critical here. A man like him is probably liked and trusted by his superiors. He's a sharp guy.

Fair enough then. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I actually hope you're more or less correct in your assessment of the situation. I hope other people get access to the KEP stuff. I can't see any reason for keeping any of it under wraps, so to speak. From what I've seen of Will's research, there isn't anything in the KEP to be afraid of. I think it's pretty obvious that the KEP derives from the Book of Abraham and not the other way around. If that's true, then it may not prove the Book of Abraham is a translation of an ancient ABraham record (don't think anything can do that), but it does change the nature of the controversy that has gone on about the KEP. That would be a big step towards better understanding those documents.

[_Nomad]

I have reserved judgment on Will's research for one reason only: when I listened to the presentation, I drew up a list of questions that needed to be answered before Will's conclusions made sense, and I sent these questions to Will. Until these unanswered questions are addressed (and Will has steadfastly ignored my questions), I can't come to any hard conclusions.

I've kind of gotten the impression he doesn't really trust you very much. Not sure as I blame him. I know you don't think so, but you kind of have two faces in your message board posts. At least that's how it seems to me. No offense intended. Just sayin'.



ETA: Gotta get back to work now. Already wasted too much time here today. Au revoir and all that.

[_Doctor Scratch]

If you didn't mean your original comment as a subtle jab at Schryver, then I guess I'm aiming at nothing. I guess this entire side conversation has been nothing but a misunderstanding between us.

It actually wasn't. I was trying to caution people against the contradiction of complaining about the closed nature of the LDS Church only to complain about opening the records to any Tom, Dick, or Harry. I respect Elder Jensen. I think he is an intelligent and reasonable guy. I wouldn't take his approval of Will's proposal as a negative comment on either Elder Jensen or the proposal. I just think that Elder Jensen's role is critical here. A man like him is probably liked and trusted by his superiors. He's a sharp guy.

I agree that Jensen is key in all this. The thing is: Jensen doesn't act purely on his own. He answers to the Brethren, and the Brethren, in my opinion, are far more paranoid and cautious. I think the basic question here is this: Was this all a matter of Will's proposal moving up through the chain of authority purely on the basis of its quality? Or did various personal "connections" play a role in the approval of the project? Certainly, Will and his supporters would like everyone to believe that this was strictly a matter of merit, but that seems extraordinarily unlikely at this point.

[_sock puppet]

I have reserved judgment on Will's research for one reason only: when I listened to the presentation, I drew up a list of questions that needed to be answered before Will's conclusions made sense, and I sent these questions to Will. Until these unanswered questions are addressed (and Will has steadfastly ignored my questions), I can't come to any hard conclusions.

I've kind of gotten the impression he doesn't really trust you very much. Not sure as I blame him. I know you don't think so, but you kind of have two faces in your message board posts. At least that's how it seems to me. No offense intended. Just sayin'.



ETA: Gotta get back to work now. Already wasted too much time here today. Au revoir and all that.

Isn't that rich? Call someone's (here, Runtu's) posting two faced, but then "No offense intended. Just sayin'."

[_sock puppet]

If you didn't mean your original comment as a subtle jab at Schryver, then I guess I'm aiming at nothing. I guess this entire side conversation has been nothing but a misunderstanding between us.

It actually wasn't. I was trying to caution people against the contradiction of complaining about the closed nature of the LDS Church only to complain about opening the records to any Tom, Dick, or Harry. I respect Elder Jensen. I think he is an intelligent and reasonable guy. I wouldn't take his approval of Will's proposal as a negative comment on either Elder Jensen or the proposal. I just think that Elder Jensen's role is critical here. A man like him is probably liked and trusted by his superiors. He's a sharp guy.

I agree that Jensen is key in all this. The thing is: Jensen doesn't act purely on his own. He answers to the Brethren, and the Brethren, in my opinion, are far more paranoid and cautious. I think the basic question here is this: Was this all a matter of Will's proposal moving up through the chain of authority purely on the basis of its quality? Or did various personal "connections" play a role in the approval of the project? Certainly, Will and his supporters would like everyone to believe that this was strictly a matter of merit, but that seems extraordinarily unlikely at this point.

I think that the fact that Will had a hypothesis, it was fresh and different, and that the FP/12 are desparate for something to try and save the Mormon Church from the embarrassment to their truth claims that the BoAbr presents--as well as his connections to DHO through Dallin D.--is what led to Will's unprecedented access to the KEP originals.

[_Will Schryver]

I agree that Jensen is key in all this. The thing is: Jensen doesn't act purely on his own. He answers to the Brethren, and the Brethren, in my opinion, are far more paranoid and cautious.

Which, of course, explains perfectly why they would approve a research proposal from an unknown autodidact from Hickville, UT.

I should probably clarify something: I have no evidence, or any particular reason to believe that anyone at the level of the Q12 or the FP actually read/reviewed my proposal. I'm inclined to believe they did not, for the simple reason that I don't think they would have taken the time necessary to do so. It was about 20 pages long, single-spaced. More than likely, their approval was required by established policy, and that approval was granted—virtually sight unseen, as it were—on the basis of the recommendation of Jensen, Turley, and Rowe.

I think the basic question here is this: Was this all a matter of Will's proposal moving up through the chain of authority purely on the basis of its quality? Or did various personal "connections" play a role in the approval of the project?

If anyone else constituting a "connection" got involved, I am unaware of it. After the fact, I explicitly inquired of John Gee, Brian Hauglid, and Dallin D. Oaks. All three explicitly denied having been contacted by anyone regarding my proposal. Dallin tells me that, to his recollection, he has never in his life talked about me with his father—not even once—on any topic whatsoever. Why would he? Dallin D. couldn't care less about my BoA-related activities. We have hardly ever spoken about it.

Anyway, I have no reason to doubt what I have been told by these people. And while I obviously can't preclude the possibility that others, besides those three, were contacted prior to the approval being granted, I honestly can't imagine who those "others" might have been. To my knowledge, at that point in time, I was a virtual non-entity at BYU and in the NAMIRS, except for a small handful of people.

Certainly, Will and his supporters would like everyone to believe that this was strictly a matter of merit, but that seems extraordinarily unlikely at this point.

I don't believe it was so much a question of whether or not my preliminary findings had merit in their eyes, as much as there was very good reason to conclude the research was solid, well-supported and well-presented, and showed promise.

Of course, you will continue to spin all of this according to your inscrutable designs. I guess that’s fine, as far as I’m concerned. I’ve said my piece on the subject. Those who want to believe it will, those who don’t won’t. That’s how it always is in this place. Bias and presupposition always Trump's truth.

[_sock puppet]

I agree that Jensen is key in all this. The thing is: Jensen doesn't act purely on his own. He answers to the Brethren, and the Brethren, in my opinion, are far more paranoid and cautious.

Which, of course, explains perfectly why they would approve a research proposal from an unknown autodidact from Hickville, UT.

I should probably clarify something: I have no evidence, or any particular reason to believe that anyone at the level of the Q12 or the FP actually read/reviewed my proposal. I'm inclined to believe they did not, for the simple reason that I don't think they would have taken the time necessary to do so. It was about 20 pages long, single-spaced. More than likely, their approval was required by established policy, and that approval was granted—virtually sight unseen, as it were—on the basis of the recommendation of Jensen, Turley, and Rowe.

I think the basic question here is this: Was this all a matter of Will's proposal moving up through the chain of authority purely on the basis of its quality? Or did various personal "connections" play a role in the approval of the project?

If anyone else constituting a "connection" got involved, I am unaware of it. After the fact, I explicitly inquired of John Gee, Brian Hauglid, and Dallin D. Oaks. All three explicitly denied having been contacted by anyone regarding my proposal. Dallin tells me that, to his recollection, he has never in his life talked about me with his father—not even once—on any topic whatsoever. Why would he? Dallin D. couldn't care less about my Book of Abraham-related activities. We have hardly ever spoken about it.

Anyway, I have no reason to doubt what I have been told by these people. And while I obviously can't preclude the possibility that others, besides those three, were contacted prior to the approval being granted, I honestly can't imagine who those "others" might have been. To my knowledge, at that point in time, I was a virtual non-entity at BYU and in the NAMIRS, except for a small handful of people.

Certainly, Will and his supporters would like everyone to believe that this was strictly a matter of merit, but that seems extraordinarily unlikely at this point.

I don't believe it was so much a question of whether or not my preliminary findings had merit in their eyes, as much as there was very good reason to conclude the research was solid, well-supported and well-presented, and showed promise.

Of course, you will continue to spin all of this according to your inscrutable designs. I guess that’s fine, as far as I’m concerned. I’ve said my piece on the subject. Those who want to believe it will, those who don’t won’t. That’s how it always is in this place. Bias and presupposition always Trump's truth.

Will, is publication going to happen in the next, say, 3-5 years?