A Very Limited Geography

[_Themis]

I understand the prevailing notion to stop your ears and close your eyes to FAIR stuff, but the quote I offered was quoting experts that are not LDS.

I am not saying ignore fair and farms, but to at least go beyond those articles.

What was said, which you didn't want to read, was that the Lemba are not differentiated from other Bantu speaking people DNA-wise.

What you quoted says they are not differentiated from other bantu in regards to mtDNA which is passed down only from the mother. Since their oral traditions say males came down this fits very well with their oral traditions. It seems you did not really read my post. Now who is being dishonest here. It certainly was not Murphy.

It also was clearly describing how any possible connection between the Lemba and simitic peoples would have been a millenium and a half after Lehi's company, after the jewish diaspora.

I believe the Lemba ancestors had two migrations. The first around 2500 years ago to Yemen and later to Africa. Pre-diaspora Jews would certainly have DNA related to those of the middle eastern regions and if they showed up in the Americas would be noticed.

If so, and the argument made in the article, which remains unaddressed, that the post diaspora jews could very well be very different DNA-wise from pre-diaspora peoples in the region, then there is absolutely no reason to blindly accept the Lemba example as anything substantive on this particular topic. Its something quite other, in consideration.

Since there traditions say the first migration was about 2500 years ago I guess not. Also post diaspora Jews would still have much of the same DNA that would be traced to pre-diaspora. Most of any dispersal and eventual return would have been from that region of the world and not Mongolia, so they would have some DNA from the surrounding areas which really would not be that different.

As it is FAIR poses good work, as far as I can tell, that often uses and references actual scientists and experts. If nothing else, at least the list of references can help this discussion along. other than that, we have nothing else to go on discussion-wise. No two-way discussion, no engaging. Just ad hoc criticisms, many of which have been dealt with in the very link I've provided. Southerton also linked a FAIR piece, which supports my arguments, but not his.

Fair and farms are good sources to check out, but there purpose is to defend a belief first and as such are not to be trusted( I would treat critical articles in the same way). Much of your confusion I think stems from them. I think I have been reasonable and willing to discuss as has SS. If you can be more civil to him I think he would be more willing to discuss it with you. He certainly knows more then I and explains things far better then I can so I hope he will stick around to say a little more. I can appreciate he may not have to much time to devote to this or other discussions.

[_stemelbow]

Can you explain to me why you would expect the Lemba to have "mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups"?

I wouldn't expect it. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

Essentially the relevance is this:

The presence of the CMH among diaspora Jewish groups with Cohens including the Lemba and Bnei Menashe, and its absence among Native Americans, is an expected finding fully consistent with the Book of Mormon story.

And

Yet it is only through the priestly "Cohen Modal Haplotype" that the Lemba have been identified as having a possible Jewish genetic origin at all.

In this I don't see how the Lemba add to this discussion. This was all meant to be in reply to Themis who saw the Lemba example as quite fitting here. I don't see how.

[_Baker]

Can you explain to me why you would expect the Lemba to have "mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups"?

I wouldn't expect it. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

Essentially the relevance is this:

The presence of the CMH among diaspora Jewish groups with Cohens including the Lemba and Bnei Menashe, and its absence among Native Americans, is an expected finding fully consistent with the Book of Mormon story.

And

Yet it is only through the priestly "Cohen Modal Haplotype" that the Lemba have been identified as having a possible Jewish genetic origin at all.

In this I don't see how the Lemba add to this discussion. This was all meant to be in reply to Themis who saw the Lemba example as quite fitting here. I don't see how.

Holy crap, really? You don't see the relevance in the ability to historically track a genetic link? Even if that link wouldn't be shared with hypothetical Lamanites?

[_stemelbow]

I am not saying ignore fair and farms, but to at least go beyond those articles.

You do realize this has been my point this whole time right? I mean Fair, in particular, has plenty of information on this particular topic, and some of the pieces summarize it all quite nicely. But in each case, the articles provide references which help us to go beyond them. I have yet to see anyone discuss the references.

What you quoted says they are not differentiated from other bantu in regards to mtDNA which is passed down only from the mother. Since their oral traditions say males came down this fits very well with their oral traditions. It seems you did not really read my post. Now who is being dishonest here. It certainly was not Murphy.

I read your post, and I apologize for any confusion. Rest assured I’ve been quite confused myself with your Lemba reference. I am questioning how in the world the Lemba add to this discussion. This example doesn’t represent anything to work with. Right? Or am I wrong? In what way does your Lemba example fit here? That’s my concern with it all.

I believe the Lemba ancestors had two migrations. The first around 2500 years ago to Yemen and later to Africa. Pre-diaspora Jews would certainly have DNA related to those of the middle eastern regions and if they showed up in the Americas would be noticed.

CFR. With all due respect, I hear your dogmatic statements on this, but I see nothing to make your case.

Since there traditions say the first migration was about 2500 years ago I guess not. Also post diaspora Jews would still have much of the same DNA that would be traced to pre-diaspora. Most of any dispersal and eventual return would have been from that region of the world and not Mongolia, so they would have some DNA from the surrounding areas which really would not be that different.

I would like someone to address the link I provided then. I hear your claims but they seem to conflict with what has already been argued, but unadressed.

Fair and farms are good sources to check out, but there purpose is to defend a belief first and as such are not to be trusted( I would treat critical articles in the same way). Much of your confusion I think stems from them. I think I have been reasonable and willing to discuss as has SS. If you can be more civil to him I think he would be more willing to discuss it with you. He certainly knows more then I and explains things far better then I can so I hope he will stick around to say a little more. I can appreciate he may not have to much time to devote to this or other discussions.

In what way I have not been civil to him? I have been civil to him. Oh well. I guess people will see what they want. On that note, I too hope he comes back and participates. He certainly has more expertise then I do.

[_stemelbow]

Holy s***, really? You don't see the relevance in the ability to historically track a genetic link? Even if that link wouldn't be shared with hypothetical Lamanites?

Oh my goodness. what a way to sensationalize and be obtuse for the sake of fighting. I don't see th epoint of continuing on that effort.

[_Buffalo]

Some yes, some no. But the science of genetics is solid and reliable, and it disproves the claims made in Book of Mormon.

Oh, okay. So you dismiss the whole of FAIR with the wave of your hand, but if something agrees with your position you might accept it?

Religious apologetic sources are not credible by definition, but I've read enough of FAIR to also know how unprofessional and dishonest they are. Most of their arguments seem to fall back on ad hominem attacks against critics and argumentum verbosium.

I only accept a position if it can be backed up with hard evidence, scientific evidence preferably, if applicable, or otherwise the type evidence accepted by genuine scholars and academics.

[_Themis]

You do realize this has been my point this whole time right? I mean Fair, in particular, has plenty of information on this particular topic, and some of the pieces summarize it all quite nicely. But in each case, the articles provide references which help us to go beyond them. I have yet to see anyone discuss the references.

It's not that Fair, Farms, and sites critical to LDS claims do not use outside sources, but in how they use them that we have to be careful.

I read your post, and I apologize for any confusion. Rest assured I’ve been quite confused myself with your Lemba reference. I am questioning how in the world the Lemba add to this discussion. This example doesn’t represent anything to work with. Right? Or am I wrong? In what way does your Lemba example fit here? That’s my concern with it all.

The Lemba example was always just brought up to show that yes we have other groups that have left Israel long ago and we find evidence from their DNA that they are related to ancient Semitic groups. Apologists want to hide Lehi's group and one other companies DNA to protect Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. They are both supposed to be from Israel so it is essentially impossible for them not have have DNA related to others in the area. Another words they would have Semitic DNA. Lehi even states his heritage. Now if they got to America and left their DNA mark scientists like they have been doing for Jews and many other groups would be able to differentiate it from the ones they do find which date back about 16,000 years to Asia. If there DNA was in the population they would see it becuase they come from another part of the world at a much later date.

CFR. With all due respect, I hear your dogmatic statements on this, but I see nothing to make your case.

I believe I already gave the wiki article which does talk about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_peopleI hope you did read it. by the way I guess saying I believe is very dogmatic. :)

I would like someone to address the link I provided then. I hear your claims but they seem to conflict with what has already been argued, but unadressed.

Could you provide the link again and what you think has been unadressed

I too hope he comes back and participates. He certainly has more expertise then I do.

Agreed

[_Baker]

Holy s***, really? You don't see the relevance in the ability to historically track a genetic link? Even if that link wouldn't be shared with hypothetical Lamanites?

Oh my goodness. what a way to sensationalize and be obtuse for the sake of fighting. I don't see th epoint of continuing on that effort.

Obtuse? Looked in a mirror lately?

[_Buffalo]

Stem, even if ancient Semitic DNA is a giant question mark (and I don't think that's the case) would you expect it to look identical to the Siberian/Asian DNA found in Native Americans?

[_stemelbow]

It's not that Fair, Farms, and sites critical to LDS claims do not use outside sources, but in how they use them that we have to be careful.

Indeed. And thus I offer it for us to discuss.

The Lemba example was always just brought up to show that yes we have other groups that have left Israel long ago and we find evidence from their DNA that they are related to ancient Semitic groups. Apologists want to hide Lehi's group and one other companies DNA to protect Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. They are both supposed to be from Israel so it is essentially impossible for them not have have DNA related to others in the area. Another words they would have Semitic DNA. Lehi even states his heritage. Now if they got to America and left their DNA mark scientists like they have been doing for Jews and many other groups would be able to differentiate it from the ones they do find which date back about 16,000 years to Asia. If there DNA was in the population they would see it becuase they come from another part of the world at a much later date.
I believe I already gave the wiki article which does talk about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_peopleI hope you did read it. by the way I guess saying I believe is very dogmatic. :)

But there is a distinct difference between the two (lemba and Lehi and co).
We would not expect that small groups that left Israel without Cohens would carry the "Cohen modal haplotype." Lehi was a descendant of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:14). Mulek, son of Zedekiah, was a descendant of Judah. While the lineages of the Ishmael, Zoram, and the servants of Mulek are unknown, there is no textual evidence that Cohen priests were present among these groups. Had Cohens been present, it seems unlikely that Lehi and other non-Cohens could have officiated in ordinances like sacrifice that were confined to Levite Priests by the Mosaic Law. Cohens were specifically forbidden to intermarry with other Israelites, accounting for the high prevalence of the CMH in today's Jewish Cohens and its presence in only 2-3% of non-Cohen Jews even after an additional twenty-six centuries of intermixing. The presence of the CMH among diaspora Jewish groups with Cohens including the Lemba and Bnei Menashe, and its absence among Native Americans, is an expected finding fully consistent with the Book of Mormon story.
We wouldn’t expect to see the same with the Native Americans as we would with the Lemba. So what DNA would we expect to see in Lehi and co?

Could you provide the link again and what you think has been unadressed

There were a couple, but this is the one I had in mind:
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... ormon.html