LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

[_Runtu]

I agree completely. It's by letting them speak that one knows what I have said is completely in keeping with LDS doctrine.

Except you presume to judge the extent of a prophet's apostasy merely because he belongs to the Democratic Party.

Doesn't seem to be the case in reality. You might be considered a borderline crackpot but the conversation really goes silent and you can hear a pin drop when a lefty speaks up in support of leftist ideals.

How do you think it would go over if you got up in Gospel Doctrine and said you wondered about the extent of President Faust's apostasy? Do you think you could hear a pin drop?

Obviously, most Mormons are conservative Republicans. But when you start opining that a person's political party affiliation indicates they are probably apostates, most people will consider you a crackpot.

[_Droopy]

If the subject came up, I would not hesitate to raise my hand in a meeting with any GA who is currently a Democrat and accuse them of apostasy. I would also refuse to sign the recommend of any member who publically campaigns for that party on that basis.

While I'm with bc about 97% of the time, I'll have to respectfully part company here. As I've said many times, party affiliation (save for the more clearly radical parties bearing the name "socialist," "communist," "Green", etc.) in a intellectually heterodox, open society such as our own does not necessarily tell us what one actually believes in any detail, nor how much of a party's platform or historic ideology one accepts.

My concern is with one's political philosophy, and especially with ideology, which encompasses much of and encroaches upon a great deal of the same territory as the gospel.

Sorry bc, but I'm with you otherwise, and I do understand you perspective here. I would make a distinction between ideologically loyal Democrats, and those who are loyal to the party and remain in it as a matter of historic attachment to historic ideals no longer present within it.

[_bcspace]

Except you presume to judge the extent of a prophet's apostasy merely because he belongs to the Democratic Party.

That is information enough in this day and age.

Doesn't seem to be the case in reality. You might be considered a borderline crackpot but the conversation really goes silent and you can hear a pin drop when a lefty speaks up in support of leftist ideals.

How do you think it would go over if you got up in Gospel Doctrine and said you wondered about the extent of President Faust's apostasy? Do you think you could hear a pin drop?

I'm sure of it. But JEF is dead and not many are aware that he was a Democrat.

Obviously, most Mormons are conservative Republicans. But when you start opining that a person's political party affiliation indicates they are probably apostates, most people will consider you a crackpot.

I know some GA's who would disagree with you.

[_Kevin Graham]

And thank God for the Democratic party as a rational alternative to the blind religious zealots who would turn this country into a theocracy if they had the power in numbers.

It is telling that droopy would let his charade drop for a second and tell us exactly what his real beef is with the "leftists." Not surprisingly, it has nothing to do with one political persuasion being a better fit for the people of this nation. Instead, it is all grounded in his religious dogma. He hates the idea of women having the right to choose, homosexuals having the right to marriage, the notion of civil rights, the notion of equality, workers having rights to negotiate their own wages, etc. In a nutshell, he wants less liberty. He wants less freedom and fewer rights. Why? Because he believes there is a man in the sky who hates all these things. The same man who requires him to put on magic underwear every night as insurance for the soul.

Yeah, praise God for the non-religious leftist who tend to place reason and rationality before religious fanaticism, all of which is usually based on some fraud like Joseph Smith.

But contrary to what Droopy needs to believe, the left are not Godless. Secularists and not atheists by definition, and I can think of plenty theists who cannot stand the religious Right. The left is overwhelmingly theistic if you look at raw numbers. They're just not convinced that droopy's idea of God is how God really is, and droops cannot stand that. He has no tolerance for different opinions.

[_Runtu]

Just thinking about Democrats and liberals I have known personally in the church:

My mission president, who was minority leader in the legislature in his state. Not an apostate.

My carrel-mate in grad school, who is a bishop currently. Extremely liberal. Not an apostate.

My friend and his wife who both teach at a college in the midwest. He was chairman of the College Democrats at BYU. Also extremely liberal. Also not an apostate.

My boss at the church office building, who has authored several faith-promoting books. Not an apostate.

Several of my professors in both majors at BYU. Not apostates.

Come to think of it, one of my mission companions was a member of the Partido Obrero Revolucionario (the Trotskyite breakoff of the Partido Comunista Boliviana).

[Guest]

Sorry bc, but I'm with you otherwise, and I do understand you perspective here. I would

Not a problem. Not many are willing to apply the Romans 1:32 principle.

make a distinction between ideologically loyal Democrats, and those who are loyal to the party and remain in it as a matter of historic attachment to historic ideals no longer present within it.

I make the same distinction until the differences with the doctrine are pointed out.

[_Droopy]

That said, your summary of the Democratic Party sounds like the mirror image of what I hear the most partisan Democrats say about my party (you know, the folks who say we're between reptile and repugnant in the dictionary).

It also happens to be one manner, and one man's list of core components, of describing the truth about that party in its contemporary garb.

[_Kevin Graham]

Who in their right mind really believes that if the nation were 100% LDS at some point, that the government would not be changed into a theocratic system? Just look at how BY and the Church ran Utah as a theocracy! Mormons pretend to worship the Constitution only because it makes them feel more mainstream than they really are. They talk the talk about liberty, but in reality they want fewer liberties when placing their religious dogma first. And make no mistake about it, for them religious dogma always comes first. It is never about what is best for the nation. It is always what is best for their Church. They've found an unprecedented level of acceptance by clinging to the Right Wing political bandwagon. From Glenn Beck to Mitt Romney, they think they found their niche in the mainstream. But don't for a second think they actually believe their own BS when they spout out the Right Wing talking points about liberties and the prosperity of the nation. WHat matters to them is the prosperity of their precious religion, and nothing more.

[_Droopy]

The extent of their apostasy is largely unknown as well as the extent of their current support. When and if it comes my way, I will speak up against it.

The extent of James Faust's apostasy?

I would, in his and other cases, put his support of the Democratic party down as wrongheadedness, not apostasy.

In other cases, in which it was not party affiliation, but political philosophy/ideology that was in question, it would be another matter.

[_bcspace]

Who in their right mind really believes that if the nation were 100% LDS at some point, that the government would not be changed into a theocratic system?

With a 50% inactivity rate and a 33% TR rate, I'd say that it's very likely the nation would not be changed into a theocratic system. With opposition in all things in effect, your scenario is not even possible under LDS doctrine until God Himself comes.