Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Kevin Graham wrote:
EAllusion wrote:I don't buy that Analytics. If his piece had a lot of merit and he went to the Maxwell Institute first to publish it, then they should have regardless of his personal issues. Granted, I'm skeptical of that merit piece, but I'm also skeptical of the MI's standards. He's not being hired to be a personal representative of the Church, he's seeking to contribute to the knowledge of the LDS standard works. The latter stands or falls irrespective of his personal character, and it would be wrong to ignore his views because of that.


Good point. What evidence do we really have that his work was ever slated for publication to begin with?

All we had was Will's say so. But Will has always hyped up future publications that never came to be. NAMI never advertised a future publication with his name on it, so I'm inclined to believe they didn't feel it was a worthy piece. Otherwise, why would Will need to spend so much time and effort lobbying on his own behalf, trying to court the NAMI talking heads on date nights and luncheons? Most people just submit a paper and have it judged on its own merits. Will has to spend months trying to woo these people in advance.


I don't think that the M.I. rejected Will's work on the basis of scholarship. For one thing, consider what MsJack was told: this person told her that the would not be publishing his work. If they never had any arrangement to begin with, and the possibility of an MI publication was all just puffery on Will's part, I don't think this M.I. person would have worded his email(s) to MsJack in this way.

But there are other reasons, too. For one thing, I'm pretty sure that the M.I. commissions almost all of its stuff. This isn't the standard scholarly article submission process, where a scholar submits to the journal which then seeks out peer review. Rather, the M.I. asks people to write articles, and then sends it along to whatever constitutes "peer review" in DCP's eyes. If Will was saying that he was planning to publish with the M.I., I would assume it was because he was invited to do so.

Another reason is the fact that his work was praised by people connected to the Maxwell Institute--notably Dan Peterson and Greg Smith. Granted, this had to do with his presentation, but I think this counts as evidence in favor of the fact that they really were genuinely planning to publish something of his. You have to wonder if the people at the M.I. would tolerate Will blatantly lying about his publication prospects. (I can't see them doing that.)

Yet another point here is the fact that the M.I. has published all kinds of crap from "writers" and "scholars" with pretty sub-par scholarship and writing skills. What I'm saying is: How bad would Will's work had to have been for it to get jettisoned by The Maxwell Institute? They're willing to publish drivel from the likes of Gary Novak and Pahoran, so how could poor quality possibly be a reason for giving the thumbs-down? Plus, so much has been invested in Defcon-5 Book of Abraham apologetics at this point that I would assume that they'd scramble to edit the crap out of Will's paper just in order to throw out something. So I don't think poor quality would ever function in the decision to put the kibbosh on the publication.

We really have to consider the larger context here. The apologists would do practically anything to score a point against Brent Metcalfe, who, I would argue, they hate perhaps more than any other living human being. Will was an active and loyal foot solider in the Mopologists' war against Metcalfe--he functioned as a buffer for people like Hauglid and Gee, and so I don't think the M.I. apologists would have wanted to give him up easily.

It had to have been a really painful decision for them to pull the plug like this. They must have agonized over it. To some of the old veterans, this must have seemed like capitulation to anti-Mormon blackmail, and I bet some of them were livid at this decision.

For my money, what has been most important/revealing about all of this is what it tells us about the M.I. as an organization, and the way they make decisions. Contrary to what Analytics said and related to what EA said---this really isn't about scholarship at all. It's purely about the image of the Maxwell Institute in general and FARMS in particular. As EA rightly points out, I think, the decision didn't have to do with Will's hypotheses or scholarship, it had to do with risk management. Clearly, the powers-that-be decided that risks involved in publishing Will were greater than any potential apologetic or scholarly benefits that they might have gotten out of the deal. Or, to put it slightly differently: whereas a normal journal would care more about the scholarship, the M.I. seems to be more concerned with the possibility of Will's antics being used as a weapon by the "antis."

But, as I said, it doesn't seem like scholarship had anything whatsoever to do with the decision. The apologists view everything that they're doing in the terms of warfare; intellectual endeavor always takes a backseat to that basic world-view.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 29, 2011 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_Yong Xi
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Yong Xi »

One wonders whether Will's and whyme's misogynistic miscues on Mormon message boards made Maxwell (laid low by leukemia) mad while meandering in his mausoleum.
_Simon Belmont

Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Chap wrote:~Huge Ego~


Dear reader:

Chap, in his great wisdom, can leave out the word "free" and later add it in (free verse, is what I mean to say, Chap implies). To him this is fine.

I, however, being LDS, am a liar when I leave out the word access concerning IP addresses.

The double standard which Chap employs knows no bounds, it appears.
_Simon Belmont

Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Doctor Scratch wrote:For one thing, I'm pretty sure that the M.I. commissions almost all of its stuff. This isn't the standard scholarly article submission process, where a scholar submits to the journal which then seeks out peer review. Rather, the M.I. asks people to write articles, and then sends it along to whatever constitutes "peer review" in DCP's eyes. If Will was saying that he was planning to publish with the M.I., I would assume it was because he was invited to do so.


Scratch is "pretty sure" about a lot of things. Luckily, we have solid statements right from the source:

Dr. Peterson wrote:Are FARMS materials peer reviewed?

Yes. FARMS materials are peer reviewed. We at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship strive to publish academically solid scholarship, and we're willing to take, and to see that the Institute takes, the steps that are necessary to do that. That's why we have a sound peer-review process that facilitates quality control.


Yet another point here is the fact that the M.I. has published all kinds of crap from "writers" and "scholars" with pretty sub-par scholarship and writing skills. What I'm saying is: How bad would Will's work had to have been for it to get jettisoned by The Maxwell Institute? They're willing to publish drivel from the likes of Gary Novak and Pahoran, so how could poor quality possibly be a reason for giving the thumbs-down?


"All kinds of crap" -- and you name two authors who have a combined total of 9 articles?

Even so, I see nothing bad about either of these authors' writing or scholarship. Why do you?

We really have to consider the larger context here. The apologists would do practically anything to score a point against Brent Metcalfe, who, I would argue, they hate perhaps more than any other living human being.


Metcalfe is irrelevant now. He hasn't put out any content for a decade. Why would they care about him?
_EAllusion
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _EAllusion »

Simon -

I just approved of Scratch's post, with one notable caveat. If Will's work buried critical arguments re: Book of Abraham under Mt. Doom, I think people would be giddy to get that out in the open. So if his publication was killed, while it may have passed muster, people probably weren't necessarily thrilled to pieces with it.

There, I've "peer-reviewed" that post. Unless things have changed very recently, the kind of peer review at the M.I. does tends to be incestuous and lacking the kind of control systems that is standard at prestigious journals. It has a peer-review system in the same sense that the young earth creationist journals "Technical Journal" and "Journal of Creation" do. Which is to say, not what is normally implied by the term.
_Simon Belmont

Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Simon Belmont »

EAllusion wrote:There, I've "peer-reviewed" that post. Unless things have changed very recently, the kind of peer review at the M.I. does tends to be incestuous and lacking the kind of control systems that is standard at prestigious journals. It has a peer-review system in the same sense that the young earth creationist journals "Technical Journal" and "Journal of Creation" do. Which is to say, not what is normally implied by the term.


First, in what way are you Scratch's peer?

Second, what makes you think you know the peer-review process at the MI? Did you read the linked article?
_EAllusion
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _EAllusion »

Simon Belmont wrote:
First, in what way are you Scratch's peer?


Good point. One thing we associate with a meaningful peer-review process is consistently forwarding submitted manuscripts to people folded into the review process who have a high degree of relevant expertise. A "peer" isn't just someone who is a peer in a mundane sense or an over-glorified copy-editor. I wonder if FARMS has always been doing that...

Second, what makes you think you know the peer-review process at the MI? Did you read the linked article?


Yes, I have read that article. I have discussed this numerous times in the past where there was a so-so to fair amount of information on the process from people involved. This includes with DCP before that article was written back when this and the actual value of having peer-reviewed acceptance would be frequently debated by him. I'm not positive, but I think I've seen some of the comments he uses to set up his strawmen to topple down.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 29, 2011 4:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
_ludwigm
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _ludwigm »

Polygamy-Porter wrote:Where there's a Will there's a.... short black skirt...

I propose MsJack attend the next Fair conference in a short black skirt and loooooooong jacket..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aDstrDMf0


Ehm...

"This video contains content from SME, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
Sorry about that."

No, I don't live in North Korea.
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_malkie
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _malkie »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Chap wrote:~Huge Ego~


Dear reader:

Chap, in his great wisdom, can leave out the word "free" and later add it in (free verse, is what I mean to say, Chap implies). To him this is fine.

I, however, being LDS, am a liar when I leave out the word access concerning IP addresses.

The double standard which Chap employs knows no bounds, it appears.

Dear reader,

Simon, in his great wisdom, equates the difference between "verse" and "free verse" with the difference between "having" something and "having access" to something.

Given the definition of free verse, I expect that most people would have no difficulty in seeing that it is verse of a particular kind. I wonder how many people would think that having access to something is a particular kind having that something.

Do you really believe, Simon, that having access to IP addresses is a kind of having in the same way as free verse is a kind of verse?
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_Analytics
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Analytics »

EAllusion wrote:
Analytics wrote:Summarizing my take on all this, the real issue here really isn't what Mr. Schryver has said, but rather the intellectual integrity of the Maxwell Institute itself. It looks like they passed the test; kudos to them.

I don't buy that Analytics. If his piece had a lot of merit and he went to the Maxwell Institute first to publish it, then they should have regardless of his personal issues. Granted, I'm skeptical of that merit piece, but I'm also skeptical of the MI's standards. He's not being hired to be a personal representative of the Church, he's seeking to contribute to the knowledge of the LDS standard works. The latter stands or falls irrespective of his personal character, and it would be wrong to ignore his views because of that.

When I said “intellectual integrity”, the concept I was groping for was “professionalism.” That aside, I completely agree with your point that Schryver’s arguments should be dealt with on their own merits.

If the MI journal in question were strictly an academic journal that was subject to a double-blind peer review process, then of course it would be wrong to base the decision to publish on personality issues like this. But that doesn’t really describe the MI’s MO, does it? The MI is an apologetics organization. Whether or not specific authors are mature adults is certainly within its purview when deciding who to associate with and promote. It’s valid and professional to say, “look, you’re just not the kind of guy we want to promote or associate with.”

Schryver himself has said in this forum that he is going to be an unmitigated dick in his online interactions with critics and the people who he considers wolves in sheep’s clothing, and that mature debate would only happen in prestigious academic journals. If I were an editor of such a journal, I’d feel like a tool if somebody used the fact that I publish him as an excuse to be misogynist elsewhere.
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