The Great Debate

[_truth dancer]

Last summer, Brent offered to debate Will. Of course, Will came up with all sorts of excuses why he couldn't but a year has passed and I think this topic should be revisited!

What do you think?

Anything planned this summer to further the Book of Abraham discussion? Any papers in the works?



~td~

[_jon]

...<tumbleweed blows across Schryvers empty desk>...

[_CaliforniaKid]

The latest issue of JWHA Journal includes my paper, "'That Which Is Lost': Assessing the State of Preservation of the Joseph Smith Papyri." This is a kind of summary statement of the case against the missing papyrus theory. I'd be happy to send a copy to anyone who's interested.

[_Chap]

The latest issue of JWHA Journal includes my paper, "'That Which Is Lost': Assessing the State of Preservation of the Joseph Smith Papyri." This is a kind of summary statement of the case against the missing papyrus theory. I'd be happy to send a copy to anyone who's interested.

Maybe post an abstract here?

[Guest]

Here's a summary, Chap.

Contemporary accounts of Joseph Smith's papyrus collection reveal that it consisted of the following:

Two papyrus rolls:

• “the teachings of Father Abraham”—The scroll of Hor
• “a sacred record kept by Joseph in Pharoah’s court in Egypt” —The scroll of Tshemmin and a fragment from a scroll of Neferirnub

Two or three other small pieces of papyrus

• “astronomical calculations”—The hypocephalus of Sheshonk
• “epitaphs” —One or two fragments from a scroll of Amenhotep

After Smith's death, the collection found its way to a man named Abel Combs. Combs sold part of the collection to a museum, which was destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. The other half eventually ended up in New York's Metropolitan Museum, from which it was purchased by the LDS Church.

The papyri destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire are:

• The interior portion of the scroll of Hor, containing two columns of hieratic text from the Document of Breathing Made by Isis, followed by the Facsimile 3 vignette—a total of about 60 cm (~2 feet) of papyrus
• One or two fragments of a Book of the Dead made for Amenhotep
• The hypocephalus of Sheshonk from which Facsimile 2 was copied
• Possibly a small quantity of papyrus from the Tshemmin scroll

The papyri purchased by the LDS Church are:

• Several fragments from the outer portion of the scroll of Hor, including the introductory vignette known as Facsimile 1 and the hieroglyphic characters that appear in the margins of the Kirtland Book of Abraham manuscripts
• Several fragments of the scroll of Tshemmin, including basically all the vignettes described by Oliver Cowdery and other eyewitnesses
• The fragment from the scroll of Neferirnub

The paper thus draws two important conclusions. First, every indication is that the materials currently owned by the Church were among those identified and translated by Joseph Smith as records of Abraham and Joseph. And second, no more than about half the papyrus is missing, and we have a pretty good idea what was contained in the missing portions.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

The latest issue of JWHA Journal includes my paper, "'That Which Is Lost': Assessing the State of Preservation of the Joseph Smith Papyri." This is a kind of summary statement of the case against the missing papyrus theory. I'd be happy to send a copy to anyone who's interested.

I would love a copy.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I would love a copy.

PM me your email address.

[_stemelbow]

The papyri destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire are:
The interior portion of the scroll of Hor, containing two columns of hieratic text from the Document of Breathing Made by Isis, followed by the Facsimile 3 vignette—a total of about 60 cm (~2 feet) of papyrus
One or two fragments of a Book of the Dead made for Amenhotep
The hypocephalus of Sheshonk from which Facsimile 2 was copied
Possibly a small quantity of papyrus from the Tshemmin scroll

Pardon my ignorance on this topic, but do you lay this all out, or how you arrived at these, in your work?

Thus we can draw two conclusions:
1) Not much papyrus is missing, and the missing materials don't seem to have included any actual records of Abraham and Joseph.
2) Every indication is that the materials owned by the Church were identified and translated by Joseph Smith as records of Abraham and Joseph.

In your summary above it doesn't appear to me that either of these two conclusions follow. But hopefully they remain convincing as a result of your paper.

And again, pardon my ignorance on this topic. I haven't really been all that up on it.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Pardon my ignorance on this topic, but do you lay this all out, or how you arrived at these, in your work?

Yes, of course.

In your summary above it doesn't appear to me that either of these two conclusions follow. But hopefully they remain convincing as a result of your paper.

Yes, I think if you read the paper you would see the logic more clearly.

[_sock puppet]

Last summer, Brent offered to debate Will. Of course, Will came up with all sorts of excuses why he couldn't but a year has passed and I think this topic should be revisited!

What do you think?

Anything planned this summer to further the Book of Abraham discussion? Any papers in the works?



~td~

Will should man up and debate Brent. That's what I think. But we know that Will will not do that.