Defenders, please show me real examples of "persecution"

[_Rambo]

How TBM is your daughter consig?

Could she just tell them that she is not Mormon anymore and does not believe it.

Whats more important to her?

Does she know all the problems with Mormon history and all the science that goes against the religion?

[_consiglieri]

Consig's case could definitely be called discrimination, and even if it is legal, it's neither right nor fair.

That said, I consider the word "persecution" to involve a continuing pattern of serious abuse... bullying and intimidation, for example.

Do you not agree?

I do agree, which is why I have put the word "persecution" in quotation marks wherever I have used it.

I think this does not constitute persecution.

I do think it constitutes invidious religious discrimination.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

Isn't it obvious? She's not a Christian.

Being a Christian was not one of the listed qualifications.

[_Rambo]

Isn't it obvious? She's not a Christian.

Being a Christian was not one of the listed qualifications.

In a way your both right.

Methodists believe Mormons believe in a different Jesus and not their Jesus.
The qualification would be to believe in the christian Jesus.

I once had an institute teacher tell us that we do really believe in a different Jesus than the rest of the christians. We believe in the real Jesus!

[_consiglieri]

How TBM is your daughter consig?

Could she just tell them that she is not Mormon anymore and does not believe it.

Whats more important to her?

Does she know all the problems with Mormon history and all the science that goes against the religion?

Hah!

Even I don't know all the problems with Mormon history and all the science that goes against the religion.

But then, I don't presume to know all the strengths with Mormon history, either. ;^)

But really, I wouldn't want to put my 14-year old daughter in the position of even considering whether she wanted to deny her faith in order to work at a horse camp.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Guest]

How TBM is your daughter consig?

Could she just tell them that she is not Mormon anymore and does not believe it.

Whats more important to her?

Does she know all the problems with Mormon history and all the science that goes against the religion?

Hah!

Even I don't know all the problems with Mormon history and all the science that goes against the religion.

But then, I don't presume to know all the strengths with Mormon history, either. ;^)

But really, I wouldn't want to put my 14-year old daughter in the position of even considering whether she wanted to deny her faith in order to work at a horse camp.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Sorry I should've said many of the problems.

I kind of wish I knew the history that I found out earlier in my life. I think my parents did know some of this history but they never told me. Hell I didn't know about blacks and the priesthood until I was already on a mission. I got told about polygamy from a non member when I was in high school. Funny how all the things that bother me about the church was told to me by non members.

It might be a good idea to inform her sometime though before she hears it from non members.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Isn't it obvious? She's not a Christian.

Being a Christian was not one of the listed qualifications.

Why do you make this so difficult for yourself? She is not a Christian. A Methodist camp is not going to hire a non-Christian no matter what the stated qualifications. It may not seem fair to you, but the camp directors are saying to themselves: "We represent a religious organization. We have the unfettered right to hire people we think will be good Christian role models. A Mormon isn't one." To me, freedom of religion is an intensely personal right the camp exercises and outsider has no standing or enforcement rights to complain.

[_consiglieri]

Why do you make this so difficult for yourself? She is not a Christian.

At least you and Polygamy Porter appear to be able to agree about something . . .

[_cafe crema]

I don't think I would call it persecution, is it persecution for a religious camp (and that's what it is if you look at the whole site) to hire counselors who believe what the church that runs it professes? Their webpage on employment (a counselor) asks "Why Spend a Summer at Warm Beach Camp?" and answers with the following.

You will have the chance to invest in the lives of children and youth.

As a member of the Warm Beach Camp summer staff you will have opportunities to share the faith which we have and encourage children and youth in their relationship with Jesus Christ. Staff in any position can have the opportunity to share the love of God through a variety of ways, each special to the work assigned.

You will have the opportunity to grow in your faith.

Although your journey with Christ will have many ups and downs no matter where you are, a summer of ministry at Warm Beach Camp will teach you to depend fully on Christ through all the challenges and blessings you may face. You will have opportunities to participate in Bible studies and devotions with your brothers and sisters in Christ and be able to seek God through prayer, small groups, and worship.

The whole point of the Warm Beach Christian Camp and Conference Center is to teach and promote the Free Methodist religion why should they be expected to employ counselors to work with members kids who don't hold their beliefs? While I empathize with Consig and his daughter, I have to say after reading the website, if it was my daughter I would have talked about the possibility that this would happen. I would have pointed out that there is a Warm Beach world beyond horse camp and that she might not fit in with the views in the greater Warm Beach world.

[_MsJack]

consiglieri ~ Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Here are my feelings on it.

Protestant youth camps, even ones with a special focus on a certain area of interest like horseback riding, are usually designed to disciple young people and help them grow in their faith in Jesus. When I say "disciple young people" and "grow in their faith in Jesus," I don't mean to imply that Mormons do not believe in discipleship or having faith in Jesus. But how Protestants interpret and apply those things is obviously pretty different from how Mormons interpret and apply those things, and a Protestant youth camp is going to want to teach what Protestants believe on those matters.

To that end, camp counselors are not just camp counselors; they're quasi-ecclesiastical leaders of sorts. Even if a camp counselor is not directly involved in religious instruction, she is someone that the other girls are going to look up to, bond with, and want to know more about. It's possible that a Mormon in that position could influence the girls in her care towards the teachings of the LDS church even without directly attempting to proselyte, just by being a good example to them and making them want to know more. If the camp's organizers do not view Mormonism as an "orthodox" (for lack of a better term) strain of Christianity that can be promoted along with Methodism, Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, etc., it is understandable why they would not want a Mormon in that position.

My own feelings are that what your daughter went through was not persecution. Discrimination for sure, but not the illegal kind or even the kind that I feel the need to get up in arms about. I do think that the camp needs to do a better job of defining the parameters of just what kind of "Christian" counselors they're looking for, but I can understand this sort of an error being made. Too many non-LDS Christians and Christian organizations are perfectly ignorant of what Mormons believe and don't see the need for such fine distinctions until something like this happens.

Your story reminds me of a case from last year wherein an LDS couple wanted to serve as scout leaders with a troop run by a local Presbyterian church. After initially showing interest in having them, the church turned them down upon finding out that they were Mormons. I blogged about this last year, here.

I'm so sorry for what your daughter has had to go through. You're one of my favorite people on this forum and my heart goes out to both of you.