Rich's Website

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_Simon Belmont

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Rich,

You said that religions that don't happen to be your particular brand of Christianity (Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, SDA) "waste people's lives" and "steer people away from false hopes, shattered dreams..." In your post above, you said:

"My ministry is to paint an honest picture of these three branches of religion. Which if they had done so, there would be no need for my articles."

and

"I have spent a great deal of my life trying to shed light on the true history of churches who misrepresent their past and make false claims about their authority."

These are attacks.

You have no evidence whatever for any of this, only things or events you find fault in. Your brand of Christianity has those same faults, too, yet you are unable to see the double standard you employ.

So why do you believe that it is your charge to attack other faiths? Why not just leave them (us) alone and promote your own particular brand of Christianity?

Buffalo wrote:Why don't you ask the head honchos in the COB to stop sending people to try to destroy the faith of thousands of people of other faiths a year?


They don't. But that is a topic for another discussion. I am talking about Rich Kelsey, not creedal Christianity in general.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Buffalo »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Why don't you ask the head honchos in the COB to stop sending people to try to destroy the faith of thousands of people of other faiths a year?


They don't. But that is a topic for another discussion. I am talking about Rich Kelsey, not creedal Christianity in general.


The church has an army of 50,000 or so young men and women working day in and day out to try to destroy the faith of people of many different religions - mostly Christians. I'm not sure how Rich can possibly compete with that.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_rich kelsey
_Emeritus
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

Simon Belmont wrote:Rich,

You said that religions that don't happen to be your particular brand of Christianity (Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, SDA) "waste people's lives" and "steer people away from false hopes, shattered dreams..." In your post above, you said:

"My ministry is to paint an honest picture of these three branches of religion. Which if they had done so, there would be no need for my articles."

and

"I have spent a great deal of my life trying to shed light on the true history of churches who misrepresent their past and make false claims about their authority."

These are attacks.

You have no evidence whatever for any of this, only things or events you find fault in. Your brand of Christianity has those same faults, too, yet you are unable to see the double standard you employ.

So why do you believe that it is your charge to attack other faiths? Why not just leave them (us) alone and promote your own particular brand of Christianity?

I have no evidence Simon? To me, this looks like a misleading statement.

However, I will address one of your questions.

Simon,

Let’s start with a little background on me:

I was born in Renton Washington in 1955. I grew up as any normal child would, but God was never mentioned in my home. As I look back to the period of years when I was searching for God, I can see that several different people could have led me to Christ. Some tried but they had a poor approach. Kenny, a former high school buddy who was now in Bible College came over to speak to me in the summer of 1975. He tried to get me to go to Bible College with him by telling me how good-looking the girls were at college. I thought, if I’m going to attend a Christian College it will be with better motives than that. If Kenny had explained the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ to me I would have gone to college with him.

Then, one day a friend named Jerry invited me to study the Bible with some Jehovah’s Witnesses. He had just been approached by two Jehovah’s Witness ladies and they were holding a Bible Study every Wednesday. These ladies had a more refined approach than other Christian people who had spoken to me before. I ended up getting entangled with that cult for almost two years. To make a long story short, I did eventually give my life to Jesus, but only after I ran into a person who could refute Jehovah’s Witness’ doctrine and challenge me with a solid, believable gospel.

Since my conversion to Christianity from the Jehovah Witness faith, I attended Bible College………. The long hard struggle to find the true gospel spawned something wonderful within me. It put a desire in my heart to get a clear straightforward gospel out to the lost—a message that people can recognize as genuine.

Here is your answer:

If it were not for the man who refuted Jehovah’s Witness doctrine I may have never realized the truth about how wrong the Jehovah’s Witnesses are!

If everyone practiced "let them alone to believe what they want" I might be a Jehovah’s Witness right now.

I would much rather be a Christian. I know the JW religion. It is based on failed prophecies, changed teachings, cover-ups, and strict rules: No birthday parties, Christmas, etc. It is considered a “religion of hate” by many who get to know its true nature.

I was delivered from that false religion by a man who showed me how it was built on a faulty foundation.

I am so happy to know the truth! I let go of the lie that the Jehovah’s Witness were the only path to salvation, i.e. the only true church. It was this experience of coming out of a cult that led me to my present ministry.
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_Simon Belmont

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Rich, I have to say that I am very disappointed in your attitude towards other faiths. Jehova's Witness church is not a cult, neither is the Seventh Day Adventist church, and neither is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The fact that you define cult as anyone who believes slightly differently than you do shows just how much you don't know, and probably don't care to find out.

So you have decided that a certain particular denomination of Christianity is the right one for you -- that's great. Now adhere to it, live it, and let other people adhere to and live theirs in peace without ministries of hate like yours.

Focus on what you believe, not what others believe.
_ErikJohnson
_Emeritus
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _ErikJohnson »

Simon Belmont wrote:Rich, I have to say that I am very disappointed in your attitude towards other faiths. Jehova's Witness church is not a cult...

If the Jehovah's Witness organization doesn't constitute a cultic offshoot of Christianity--what does, Simon?

--Erik
_rich kelsey
_Emeritus
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

ErikJohnson wrote:
Simon Belmont wrote:Rich, I have to say that I am very disappointed in your attitude towards other faiths. Jehova's Witness church is not a cult...

If the Jehovah's Witness organization doesn't constitute a cultic offshoot of Christianity--what does, Simon?

--Erik

Erik, that is a good question. Will Simon answer it?

The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that during the Battle of Armageddon God will destroy every Church member on earth who is not a Jehovah’s Witness.

I was taught this first hand back in the 1970s during weekly Bible studies. Here are a few quotes from my work showing a history of this teaching:

“Christendom will be completely destroyed by October 1914" (ZION'S WATCH TOWER, January 15, 1892, p. 1355).

The 1917 Watchtower book, The Finished Mystery claimed on page 485,

“In the year 1918 God will destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions. Any that escape shall come to the works of pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of ‘Christianity.’”

They still maintain that God will destroy all other church members when Christ comes to establish his Kingdom — only Jehovah’s Witnesses will be spared.

Present day Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that they alone are God’s channel of truth,

The Watchtower Society is God’s sole channel of truth for people on earth today...” (The Watchtower, Jan 15, 1969 p. 51)

Here is a small section from my work explaining this:
The reason Jesus supposedly picked the International Bible Students, now known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, as

“God’s sole channel of truth” in 1919,

is because, when Christ allegedly returned in power, taking his place on the heavenly throne on October 22, 1914, Christ’s work had just begun. The next thing on his agenda was to judge among his servants on earth.

By the year 19189 Christ had allegedly judged his church. In the spring of 1919 the selection was made. Jesus supposedly picked the Watchtower Society as God's

“only channel." 10

History tells a different story:

In 1909, Russell wrote these words:

"... of his [Christ’s] presence, he [Jesus] would bring forth from the storehouse of Grace, Wisdom and Truth things ‘new and old,’ and that he would select at that time one special channel through which those blessings would be called to the attention of the household of faith—“ (Watch Tower 1909, October 1, 1909 p. 292, emphasis ours)

What Russell expressed in that 1909 Watch Tower magazine is the understanding that the Watch Tower Society had been selected by Christ as the,

“one special channel,"

long before the year 1919.

In Russell's mind, Jesus Christ's presence began on October 22nd, 1874; not in 1914, which is what the Society teaches today.
Therefore, when Russell penned the words,

"at that time,"

he was speaking of the first time the Society claimed Christ returned; which was in the 1870s!

The exact timing of Christ selecting the Society in those days is given in the 1919 Watchtower magazine:

“Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?” (Watchtower April 1, 1919 p. 6414)

In 1919 the Society was teaching an 1874 date for Christ’s return and an 187811 date for the beginning of the “harvest period.”

Therefore, when this “only channel” statement was spelled out, the Jehovah’s Witnesses were teaching that the “harvest period” had begun12 40 years before. So, at that time, the Watchtower Society was claiming they were,

“the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually”

since the 1870s — not since 1919 which is the Society’s current teaching.

The beginning of this supposed harvest period was pushed ahead in the early 1940s when the year of Christ’s return was changed from 1874 to 1914. This “one and only channel” claim conveniently moved ahead with the change in dates for the “harvest”13 and “Christ’s return.”

According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses these events go hand in hand. Jesus Christ had to return in power first before he could judge among the churches and reward the Society as “God’s sole channel of truth.”14
What it all comes down to is this: The Watchtower Society claimed that they were “the one and only channel which the Lord has used” 41 years before Jesus supposedly chose them in 1919.

So, if they were the “only channel” God was using from the beginning of the harvest in 1878, then why would Jesus pick them again as “the one and only channel” 41 years later in 1919? The significance of Christ picking the Society in 1919 is completely lost if they were already the “only channel” God was using before that year.

The story continues:

Out of all the Christian sects worldwide, the Watchtower Society was supposedly picked because of their outstanding record of providing,
“the Christian household with food at the proper time.”15

If this really was the case, that between 1914 and 1919 — from the time Jesus Christ allegedly returned in power, to the time he supposedly selected the Watchtower Society as his only channel of communication — the Watchtower Society was providing…

(to read more please click here: http://richkelsey.org/JW%20ARTICLE.htm)

Endnotes:

8. “Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.” And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The “slave” then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations” (Watchtower, June 15, 1957 p. 370).

9. “By his spirit, the holy spirit, Jehovah God guides or leads his people up to a certain point of time, and thus he did until the time when ‘the comforter’ was taken away, which would necessarily occur when Jesus, the Head of his organization, came to the temple and gathered unto himself those whom he found faithful when he, as the great Judge, began his judgment, in 1918” (Watchtower Publication: Preservation, J.F.Rutherford, 1932 p.p. 193-194).

10. “Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?” (Watchtower, April 1, 1919, p. 6414)

11. “...the harvest began in 1878, there is ample and convincing proof. The end of the harvest is due in the spring of 1918" (Watchtower Reprints, May 1, 1918 p. 6243)

12. “For instance, as we look back and note that the Scriptures marked 1873 as the end of six thousand years from Adam to the beginning of the seventh thousand, and the fall of 1874 as the beginning of the forty- year harvest of the Gospel age...” (Watchtower Reprints, July 15, 1894 p. 1675)

13. “The parallel, therefore, would establish definitely that the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A.D. 1918. If this is true, and the evidence is very conclusive that it is true, then we have only a few months in which to labor before the great night settles down when no man can work” (Watchtower, October 1, 1917 p. 6149).

14. “The Watchtower Society is God’s sole channel of truth for people on earth today..., and has proven to be a faithful guide in the interpretation of Bible prophecy” (Watchtower, January 15, 1969 p.51).

15. “Modesty on the part of the faithful and discreet slave class, commissioned to provide the Christian household with food at the proper time, prevents it from presumptuously running ahead and wildly speculating about things that are still unclear” (Watchtower, June 1, 1997 p. 14).
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_gramps
_Emeritus
Posts: 2485
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Re: Rich's Website

Post by _gramps »

Wow! There is something I can learn from this thread.

Rich, you must be one of the most patient saints on the planet.

Simon reminds me of a small, yapping mutt of a dog that lived in our neighborhood. When I went by his home, on my bicycle, he would chase me along the street. Sometimes, he was stupid enough to get too close. I would give him a swift kick in his yapping chops and send him crying back home, until the next day. when he would inevitably repeat his behavior.

Funny, the dog's name was Wimpy.

Perhaps here in the Celestial forum, it is good that you aren't like me. I would have already given Simon a quick kick and sent him home.

My respects, Sir.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _Buffalo »

Simon Belmont wrote:Jehova's Witness church is not a cult


Yes they are.

Simon Belmont wrote:neither is the Seventh Day Adventist church


Correct

Simon Belmont wrote:neither is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Pseudo cult. Technically a cult no longer, but retaining some cult-like attributes.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_rich kelsey
_Emeritus
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _rich kelsey »

Buffalo wrote:
Simon Belmont wrote:Jehova's Witness church is not a cult


Yes they are.

Simon Belmont wrote:neither is the Seventh Day Adventist church


Correct

Simon Belmont wrote:neither is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Pseudo cult. Technically a cult no longer, but retaining some cult-like attributes.

gramps, it is good to have you join in. And, for the rest of the members here who posted in this thread, thanks!

Buffalo, I agree, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult and that is why I called them a cult. I would never call the Seventh Day Adventist a cult.

Yet, I think they should take a good look at their history and perhaps change how they view their Christian brothers and sisters.

When I started writing about the Seventh Day Adventists about 13 years ago I bought books on early advent history. I studied the Great Disappointment, which was a 13 year movement culminating on October 22nd 1844 at midnight Jerusalem time.

Here is a small section on this from a book of mine:
Miller and Snow claimed: “There is no possibility of a mistake
in this time.” They warned the unbelieving, “Those who reject
this light will be lost.” To the uninitiated, the signs of Christ’s
coming were too plain to be doubted. Magazines were printed,
heralding the coming of Christ. Newspaper reporters attended and
covered Adventists’ speaking engagements. Fifteen hundred Millerites
traveled across the United States, going from town to town,
proclaiming “the Advent near.”

When October 22 came, the Millerites watched and prayed.
With white ascension robes on, many stood upon rooftops, anticipating
a heavenly ride. As the midnight hour approached,
the faithful were at peace with God. They spent the last hours
in quiet solitude. Softly praying. Waiting. Resting. Standing on
the brink of eternity. The summer was over; the harvest was
in the barns. It was time for the laborers to reap their rewards.
Now was the time to Florida ee from Egypt and enter Canaan’s land.
Now was the time.

Nothing happened on October 22. For the faithful, heavy depression
set in. This day was perhaps the greatest disappointment
to befall the church in the history of the New Dispensation. Fifty
thousand of Miller’s followers had found it impossible to stay in fellowship
with their former congregations. They left those churches
when their peers failed to accept William Miller’s delusion. These
fi fty thousand now had to face the truth. They hadn’t been taken
into glory.

The local Seventh Day Adventist Church worked with me on this history. They got me in touch with a devout man from their congregation and he provided me with plenty of information. I also contacted Randy at freeminds and he sent my rough draft to a Adventist (Bible Student) who is a historian.

The JWs branched out of that Adventist movement originally started by Miller. At one point I believe the movement got to the point where it took on a cult status.

I have a lot of respect for William Miller. I am reading a series of lectures of his this very week while I am working on a new article entitled Apocalypse Now?

The thing I respect Miller the most for is: he walked away from the Advent movement shortly after Jesus did not return in 1844!

Other Adventists believed something did happen on October 22 1844; yet is was invisible:

One door in heaven was shut.

Another door in heaven was opened.

Christ walked from one room in the heavenly temple to another room.

And, judgment began.

As far as whether the Mormons are a cult or not, I will not judge. I believe there are Christians in the Mormon church, as well as in the JWS and the SDA church. God is not so small as to require his children to belong to one church in order to find him. And, Christ did not pay such a price to make his sacrifice meaningless due to our misunderstandings.

If anyone does actually read my works on the JWs they may not see a hate filled prose? One man spoke of such love in a man when he said this about my book:

I like this book "Ride the Ark through Armageddon."

As teacher of the Greek language and writer of books warning us on end-time Biblical signs matching with contemporary events -see mine at lifeedified- I want to express my high esteem and agreement to this writer's deep views, his interpretation and to his mastery of simplifying the symbolic meanings in the Word of God. It is rare to find such love in a man who devoted himself to searching God's hidden truths. These mysteries are not easily uncovered to everyone. Isaiah 55:9 says, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Yet I must give appreciation to the positive and pure exploration in this work and wholeheartedly recommend its study to everyone.
(Amazon.com review)

I am having a hard time trying to figure out how anyone can read my articles and come away thinnking they are filled with hate. It is also difficult to understand how a person can say this about me:
“The fact that you define cult as anyone who believes slightly differently than you do shows just how much you don't know, and probably don't care to find out.” (Simon Belmont)
My site:
http://richkelsey.org/index.htm
If you haven’t read my articles on Mormonism please go to the site and read them.

Rich Kelsey
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Rich's Website

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Simon,

I too am confused about your use of the word 'hate' and just what you believe is appropriate and not appropriate in decimating religious information, discussing religion and opining about religion. I have read a couple of Rich's essays and I don't find them overly aggressive or hostile. They aren't the most sophisticated and I would certainly refine some of the parts that I read. Certainly there wasn't anything in my reading that compels or forces anyone to not only read the essays but to understand them as attacking. What is wrong with disagreement and what on earth would simple disagreement look like to you that wasn't hate or attacking of your beliefs and religion?

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
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