The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

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_harmony
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _harmony »

malaise wrote:Well, it depends on what you mean. The official view of the Church seems to be that sealings remain valid after divorce in the majority of cases where a woman does not remarry another Mormon man, which is why men have new sealings added if they remarry-the old sealing is still valid. So I do not think that the fact a man was abusive to his wife means that the sealing is invalid. In fact, I think that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and McConkie would tell you that a man has the right to discipline his wife.


You, and they, would be wrong.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_malaise
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _malaise »

harmony wrote:You, and they, would be wrong.

I don't think it's acceptable for a man to hit a woman.
I'm sorry, but all questions muse be submitted in writing.
_Yoda

Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _Yoda »

malaise wrote:Well, it depends on what you mean. The official view of the Church seems to be that sealings remain valid after divorce in the majority of cases where a woman does not remarry another Mormon man, which is why men have new sealings added if they remarry-the old sealing is still valid. So I do not think that the fact a man was abusive to his wife means that the sealing is invalid. In fact, I think that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and McConkie would tell you that a man has the right to discipline his wife.


You made a statement about doctrine, and I gave you an official, doctrinal response. We are instructed, in the temple, that covenants made there are only a promise of what is to come, and it is dependent upon each individual's faithfulness, and in keeping the commandments.

If a husband beats his wife, he has broken a commandment. If he does not fully repent, then that covenant is broken.

I think that this important piece of doctrine has been ignored by the Church which is why, if you hadn't noticed, I AGREE with you, that the policy and red tape surrounding these cases regarding sealings being revoked should be changed.

You really need to knock off the snark when we agree more than we disagree on some of these issues. Read my entire post next time.

As far as your comment regarding McConkie, Joseph Smith, and BY....as Harmony says...if they do indeed believe those things, they are wrong, and have been judged by God, accordingly.
_malaise
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _malaise »

liz3564 wrote:You made a statement about doctrine, and I gave you an official, doctrinal response. We are instructed, in the temple, that covenants made there are only a promise of what is to come, and it is dependent upon each individual's faithfulness, and in keeping the commandments.

If a husband beats his wife, he has broken a commandment. If he does not fully repent, then that covenant is broken.
I'm not so sure that is the case. What commandment says a husband cannot discipline his wife? I think that is a modern idea that you assume is doctrinal, when in reality it is not.
I'm sorry, but all questions muse be submitted in writing.
_Yoda

Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _Yoda »

malaise wrote:
harmony wrote:You, and they, would be wrong.

I don't think it's acceptable for a man to hit a woman.

Neither do I.

Neither does Harmony.

Neither does the Church:

Joseph F. Smith wrote:I can not understand how a man can be unkind to any woman, much less to the wife of his bosom, and the mother of his children, and I am told that there are those who are absolutely brutal, but they are unworthy the name of men.
_malaise
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _malaise »

Your quote doesn't really prove anything. Muslims consider it acceptable for a men to hit his wife, but caution against cruelty. It is similar to the issue of men being the decision makers in the family. While the man is told he is supposed to love the woman and care for her, at the end of the day she is expected to do what he wants. In the same vein, while many men from the 1800s (including modern men who seem to think it's the 1800s) would say a man has a duty to protect his wife, they would also say he has the duty and right to discipline her.
I'm sorry, but all questions muse be submitted in writing.
_Yoda

Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _Yoda »

This is the Church's official stand on spousal abuse. There are scriptural references included:
Spouse Abuse:
Men who abuse their wives are not worthy to hold the priesthood. When there is abuse in a marriage it violates the covenant to love and respect one's spouse.

"The scriptures declare, 'Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it' (Ephesians 5:25; see also D&C 121:34–36, 41–46). The prophets have taught that husbands and wives are to love one another and treat each other with respect and kindness" ("Responding to Abuse," LDS Church, 4.)

Unfortunately, I have a presentation to write, and can't play this CFR game anymore. You seem to be set on the idea that the Church condones spousal abuse.

It most certainly does not.

Do I believe that changes need to be made to more effectively fight spousal abuse both in and out of the Church? You bet I do!

But you are simply making blanket statements about the doctrine which is incorrect.

You also need to keep in mind that the gospel does not necessarily equal "the Church".

I am sorry if you, or someone close to you, has suffered from spousal abuse. I have a close friend who is not a member of the Church who suffered from spousal abuse. It happens everywhere.

It is a horrible thing.

But the doctrine is the doctrine, and I call it as I see it.

Believe me, there is plenty about the Church that I disagree with when it comes to policy, in particular. But I won't allow a statement regarding the Church encouraging or accepting abuse to go unchallenged.

Have there been periods of time when the Church has turned a blind eye?

Yes. I have seen that happen.

Does it need to change?

Yes, and I have seen the Church take steps to make those changes. They need to make more.
_zeezrom
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _zeezrom »

I would also like to support the argument that a sealing is pretty meaningless if 1) you don't believe in it and 2) the other party doesn't use it as a weapon against you. It would be demeaning for an ex or separated wife to hear the man say, "You better do ____ or else you will regret it in the afterlife as my celestial wife."

Obviously, there is a way for her to defy the idea (flip the bird at the temple or at the sealing in general). It is more difficult to deal with a jackass man you are sealed to, I imagine.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

malaise wrote:I do not think that the fact a man was abusive to his wife means that the sealing is invalid.

I certainly do.

I believe that you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of covenant, in the Latter-day Saint conception of it.

Consider the archetypal covenant between God and human. God, in our view, will never violate his covenant. But the human co-covenanter might well, and often does. In that case, the covenant is null and void:

"I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise" (Doctrine and Covenants 82:10).

In other words, the unfaithfulness of one party to the covenant nullifies it, even if the other party is perfectly faithful.

Covenants are not automatically and mechanically binding regardless of the faithfulness and behavior of those who entered into them:

"All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise . . . are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead" (Doctrine and Covenants 132:7).

Here is Bruce McConkie, of all people, on "the Holy Spirit of promise," as cited in, of all things, the Church's Eternal Marriage Student Manual:

“The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Spirit promised the saints, or in other words the Holy Ghost. This name-title is used in connection with the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost, that is, the power given him to ratify and approve the righteous acts of men so that those acts will be binding on earth and in heaven. ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations,’ must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, if they are to have ‘efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.’ ( D. & C. 132:7 .)

“To seal is to ratify, to justify, or to approve. Thus an act which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is one which is ratified by the Holy Ghost; it is one which is approved by the Lord; and the person who has taken the obligation upon himself is justified by the Spirit in the thing he has done.

“The ratifying seal of approval is put upon an act only if those entering the contract are worthy as a result of personal righteousness to receive the divine approbation. They ‘are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.’ ( D. & C. 76:53 .) If they are not just and true and worthy the ratifying seal is withheld.

“When any ordinance or contract is sealed by the Spirit, it is approved with a promise of reward, provided unrighteousness does not thereafter break the seal, remove the ratifying approval, and cause loss of the promised blessing. ( Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 55; vol. 2, pp. 94–99.) Seals are placed on contracts through righteousness.

“The operation and power of the Holy Spirit of Promise is best illustrated by the ordinance and contract of baptism. An unworthy candidate for baptism might deceive the elders and get the ordinance performed, but no one can lie to the Holy Ghost and get by undetected. Accordingly, the baptism of an unworthy and unrepentant person would not be sealed by the Spirit; it would not be ratified by the Holy Ghost; the unworthy person would not be justified by the Spirit in his actions. If thereafter he became worthy through repentance and obedience, the seal would then be put in force. Similarly, if a worthy person is baptized, with the ratifying approval of the Holy Ghost attending the performance, yet the seal may be broken by subsequent sin.

“These principles also apply to every other ordinance and performance in the Church. Thus if both parties are ‘just and true,’ if they are worthy, a ratifying seal is placed on their temple marriage; if they are unworthy, they are not justified by the Spirit and the ratification of the Holy Ghost is withheld. Subsequent worthiness will put the seal in force, and unrighteousness will break any seal.

“Even if a person progresses to that state of near-perfection in which his calling and election is made sure, in which he is ‘sealed up unto eternal life’ ( D. & C. 131:5 ; 132:18–26 ), in which he receives ‘the promise . . . of eternal life’ ( D. & C. 88:3–4 ), in which he is ‘sealed up unto the day of redemption’ ( D. & C. 124:124 ; Eph. 1:13 )—yet with it all, these great promises are secured only if the ‘performances’ are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise” ( Mormon Doctrine, 361–62).

http://institute.LDS.org/manuals/eterna ... l-holy.asp

All humans are imperfect, of course. No marriage is perfect. But surely there is a point beyond which bad behavior nullifies the marriage covenant. And surely wife-beating and spousal abuse, barring repentance and reform, is a pretty good candidate for doing so.

The idea that a covenant, once entered into, binds both parties no matter how badly one of them behaves and no matter how much one of them may want out of it is thoroughly foreign to me, and to my understanding of temple marriage. Whether or not the sealing has been formally cancelled in such an instance is essentially a matter of bookkeeping. Such a sealing is already "of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead." Whether the Church has formally noted the reality of the situation is immaterial, almost anticlimactic.

malaise wrote:I think that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and McConkie would tell you that a man has the right to discipline his wife.

Where is the evidence that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young (nineteenth-century Americans though they were) endorsed wife-beating?

Where is the evidence that Bruce McConkie endorsed spousal abuse?
_zeezrom
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Re: The way sealings work for women is quite disturbing

Post by _zeezrom »

I would also like to make another point. Consider the scenario where a husband and wife love each other as kindred spirits (refer to Anne of Green Gables). At the end of a long day, having experienced the typical frustrations parents usually go through, they sit down at the kitchen table and talk. They come to an agreement on how to better help each other. He smiles at her. She extends her hand to his. There is a moment of epiphany shared between them.

This little moment is infinitely more powerful than any religious rite. This is the pragmatic God in action. This is what matters.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
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