Mormons are ashamed of their own beliefs

[_Simon Belmont]

Should she lie? The leaders of the church DO keep the finances of the church a secret and they DO spend most of the money on luxuries for themselves and improvements to Salt Lake City.

Let us examine these two statements:

A. The church keeps its finances secret.
B. The church spends most of the money on luxuries for itself.

How can you know B, when A is not revealed?

[_malaise]

Should she lie? The leaders of the church DO keep the finances of the church a secret and they DO spend most of the money on luxuries for themselves and improvements to Salt Lake City.

Let us examine these two statements:

A. The church keeps its finances secret.
B. The church spends most of the money on luxuries for itself.

How can you know B, when A is not revealed?

The exact numbers are not known, that's all. The LDS church is the biggest landowner in Britain, has tons of useless stuff like their farmland in Florida, and pays for SLC development projects on the reg. They won't reveal the exact numbers because they are damning, and because they are spending money on themselves (or so I suspect).

[_Simon Belmont]

The exact numbers are not known, that's all. The LDS church is the biggest landowner in Britain, has tons of useless stuff like their farmland in Florida, and pays for Salt Lake City development projects on the reg. They won't reveal the exact numbers because they are damning, and because they are spending money on themselves (or so I suspect).

Pretty good information from such a financially secret organization!

[_Joseph]

Well, let's start with "blacks being evil in the pre-existence."

No doubt that was taught in your "seminary classes;" it just wasn't ever taught in any actual LDS seminary classes.

It is a lie. It represents no LDS doctrine. It was never taught by the Church, at any time, ever.
********************************

Well poran, you were not in every seminary class or sunday school or priesthood class, were you?

This was taught in Seminary in Panguich, Utah as well as in Sunday School and Priesthood. Came up often with the tired old "BYU just signed a black athlete... a javelin catcher". That one was repeated over & over, even in the BYU dorms both before and after my mission. That attitude was in many of the missionaries who would say 'stay out of n*****(Moderator Note)Please refrain from using the "n" word. Thank you. Liz' when some of us would drive toward the lower end of a couple of the cities in our Mission. It was the attitude of one Mission President and some General Authorities.
(see Alvin R Dyer : Why is it that you are white and not colored? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Who had anything to do with your being born into the Church and not born a Chinese or a Hindu, or a Negro? Is God such an unjust person that He would make you white and free and make a Negro CURSED under the CURSING OF CAIN that he sould not hold the Priesthood of God?...“)

Yes, Morons are ashamed and THEY SHOULD BE!

[_Pahoran]

So what I get from your evasion is this: no, you won't show him what you really think. Instead, you tell him that you sustain the leaders of the Church, and conceal from him the evidence that proves otherwise.

Got it.

Should she lie?

No. She shouldn't. Especially when talking to her bishop in a Temple Recommend interview.

That's actually my point.

The leaders of the church DO keep the finances of the church a secret

That's right. As every Church member knows.

and they DO spend most of the money on luxuries for themselves

I regret that I cannot find that you have any good-faith basis to claim to believe what you assert.

In case you're wondering: that means your statement is a lie.

Of course those who've given up their chosen careers to serve in the Church full-time are compensated for that. That does not mean they spend the tithing funds on "luxuries for themselves." Indeed, given the incessantly whined-about "secret" nature of the Church's finances, you cannot legitimately claim to have any actual evidence to support your baseless accusation.

and improvements to Salt Lake City.

Again, you have no valid basis to suppose that the improvements to SLC absorb "most of the money."

If they spent half as much money on humanitarian causes they could save the lives of countless people.

OTOH, if all the whiners and naysayers were to stub out their cigarettes and give their baccy-and-booze money to a charitable organisation they trust, that would save far more.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Pahoran]

Well, let's start with "blacks being evil in the pre-existence."

No doubt that was taught in your "seminary classes;" it just wasn't ever taught in any actual LDS seminary classes.

It is a lie. It represents no LDS doctrine. It was never taught by the Church, at any time, ever.
********************************

Well poran, you were not in every seminary class or sunday school or priesthood class, were you?

This was taught in Seminary in Panguich, Utah as well as in Sunday School and Priesthood.

Call for references, please. Does anyone, either than a malice queen who thinks it's clever to pun "Mormons" and "morons," actually support your assertion?

Thought not.

Came up often with the tired old "BYU just signed a black athlete... a javelin catcher".

Har har. But what does that have to do with the malicious canard that the Church ever taught anything about "blacks being evil in the pre-existence?"

That one was repeated over & over, even in the BYU dorms both before and after my mission. That attitude was in many of the missionaries who would say 'stay out of niggertown' when some of us would drive toward the lower end of a couple of the cities in our Mission. It was the attitude of one Mission President and some General Authorities.
(see Alvin R Dyer : Why is it that you are white and not colored? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Who had anything to do with your being born into the Church and not born a Chinese or a Hindu, or a Negro? Is God such an unjust person that He would make you white and free and make a Negro CURSED under the CURSING OF CAIN that he sould not hold the Priesthood of God?...“)

And so? What does that have to do with the malicious canard that the Church ever taught anything about "blacks being evil in the pre-existence?"

Yes, Morons

Yawn.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Joseph]

pahran writes: "Of course those who've given up their chosen careers to serve in the Church full-time are compensated for that"
**************************

So you do agree l-dsinc has a paid ministy - Priestcraft per the Book of Mormon view.

Only question now is "how much do they get paid"?

Most churches have this information available to those who ask and those who donate the money. These churches account for the money. It is a very simple and honorable thing to do.

They don't go about saying 'no paid ministry' while paying the ministers.

[_Pahoran]

Jojo,

Since you've failed to provide a reference for your assertion that the false doctrine of "blacks being evil in the pre-existence" was "taught in Seminary in Panguich, Utah as well as in Sunday School and Priesthood," we shall take that as a discredited claim.

pahran writes: "Of course those who've given up their chosen careers to serve in the Church full-time are compensated for that"
**************************

So you do agree l-dsinc has a paid ministy - Priestcraft per the Book of Mormon view.

I "agree" that there is no such thing as "l-dsinc." Only obnoxious bigots and malicious demagogues refer to the Church of Jesus Christ as "l-dsinc."

Nor do I accept that a tiny handful of full-time leaders justifies spiteful uber-pharisees in their clearly counterfactual denial of the indisputable fact that the Church has an unpaid ministry.

Only question now is "how much do they get paid"?

Most churches have this information available to those who ask and those who donate the money. These churches account for the money. It is a very simple and honorable thing to do.

I grant that it is far more honorable than deriding those whose religion you despise by calling them "morons." It is also just as honourable as keeping the internal finances private, where all parties clearly understand that the money donated no longer belongs to the donors.

They don't go about saying 'no paid ministry' while paying the ministers.

I suggest you read this article. Then you might actually be informed about something, instead of just continually spouting about things you know nothing about.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Runtu]

I think some Mormons are extremely sensitive about discussing the more "esoteric" beliefs without a ton of context and rationalizing. That's why you get the "yellow journalism" accusation when people are at all blunt in their description of some doctrines.

I think we can all admit that there are quite a few Mormon beliefs that most people would find at least slightly odd.

[_harmony]

Of course those who've given up their chosen careers to serve in the Church full-time are compensated for that. That does not mean they spend the tithing funds on "luxuries for themselves." Indeed, given the incessantly whined-about "secret" nature of the Church's finances, you cannot legitimately claim to have any actual evidence to support your baseless accusation.

Tax records for Packer, Salt Lake county. Million dollar estate, all paid for with tithing funds, since he hasn't worked at a real job since 1961.

And yes, my bishop knows of my views. He finds value in keeping those who question close and loving us.