Buffalo wrote:They're pretty small already. Maybe he was just trying to make them thicker by after the fact by adding an extra chunk of metal and calling it the "sealed portion"
Well there are a lot of maybes and possiblies. That's what I'm saying. Who really knows? Why is this a criticism?
Because sealing the plates doesn't make sense - there's no reason to do it (or even give Joseph plates at all) because he didn't use them to translate.
It makes sense only when you view the plates as a prop.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Scottie wrote:If the plates don't even need to be in the room to be translated, what is the point of sealing 2/3 of them?
Not only that, but since the power of God was necessary to translate anyways, what harm would come by opening up a leaf in the lower 2/3 of the plates and looking at it?
The "sealed plates" rationale (my theory) served two purposes;
1) The "prop" that Joseph Smith constructed from materials in his father's (Joseph Smith Sr.) cooper shop was passable if felt or "hefted" under a cloth. Joseph Smith was able to create a handful of moving pages but to construct a prop of hundreds of thin sheets was not a viable option for J.S, and thus, a portion of the prop was a chunk of metal (multiple sheet tin pieces) underneath those first flippable sheets and the excuse was that it a "sealed portion". A nice prop if touched while covered...which is exactly how almost every person "witnessed" the plates physically, including Emma Smith.
2) Joseph Smith would have additional scripture to "translate" to invent and formulate his theology.
Who knows? There could be anything in the encapsulated section. I suspect he put something heavy in there to give it some heft, but whether it was a solid block of metal, layered sheets of tin, or something else I have no idea.
The rumor is that Joseph threw the plates in a well when he no longer needed them. I think someone should poke around their last known location to see if they can find anything. It's a long shot, but it would blow the lid off the whole charade if someone found them.
Fifth Columnist wrote:It's a long shot, but it would blow the lid off the whole charade if someone found them.
No it wouldn't.
Members would still believe just like always.
In fact, the Faith-Promoting Rumor machine would roll full steam. We'd have unsubstantiated rumor after rumor about how scientists inspecting the newly found plates are converting to Mormonsim by the hundreds and thousands!
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Who knows? There could be anything in the encapsulated section. I suspect he put something heavy in there to give it some heft, but whether it was a solid block of metal, layered sheets of tin, or something else I have no idea.
The rumor is that Joseph threw the plates in a well when he no longer needed them. I think someone should poke around their last known location to see if they can find anything. It's a long shot, but it would blow the lid off the whole charade if someone found them.
Where did that rumor come from?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Fifth Columnist wrote:It's a long shot, but it would blow the lid off the whole charade if someone found them.
No it wouldn't.
Members would still believe just like always.
In fact, the Faith-Promoting Rumor machine would roll full steam. We'd have unsubstantiated rumor after rumor about how scientists inspecting the newly found plates are converting to Mormonsim by the hundreds and thousands!
Sadly, you are probably right. Apologists would quickly develop ridiculous theories like "two sets of plates" to explain it away. I can hear someone apologist arguing: "Well, Joseph needed a mock set of gold plates since the real ones were too heavy and precious to carry around all the time. God, therefore, gave Joseph permission to make a fake set."
The presumption is that the sealed plates are in Reformed Egyptian or other unknown language. That may not be the case.
Nephi has been told that the inspired writings from North, South, etc., and islands will come together. The spirit of prophecy is involved. Since prophecy and revelation are involved, I suspect that the sealed portion were written, by the power of God, in a language which had not yet come into being. I think the language was English. If Joseph had seen those plates, he would have known more than God wanted him to know. Also, the Lord knew that Joseph's life would be taken before he could get to the sealed portion. If there is not a Translator, then the Lord needed to make sure the plates could be read by anyone, or any prophet who, like our modern prophets, know only English and can translate nothing. Why else end the Reformed Egyptian part of the book with an appeal to future generations, unless the next set of plates were in that generation's own language? I'm sure the scholars at Maxwell Institute or FAIR can explain this better than me.
10 But the words which are sealed he shall not deliver, neither shall he deliver the book. For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof.
Sealed by the power of God, and when the Lord decides its time the sealed portion will reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end.
So there you have it, how it was sealed and what it contains.
Then saith He to Thomas... be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:27
10 But the words which are sealed he shall not deliver, neither shall he deliver the book. For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof.
Sealed by the power of God, and when the Lord decides its time the sealed portion will reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end.
So there you have it, how it was sealed and what it contains.
The plates were supposed to be sealed with a metal band. This would be unnecessary since no one could read them, and God obviously planned to take them back as the story goes. Why even make plates when Joseph never did use them. When God is ready he can just give the greater knowledge without any need of plates. It's not like the current President of the church would be able to read any record. Even a bigger problem then this is just how much english words came from less the 1/3 of the translated portion from metal plates. This really is a major problem not talked about by apologist or critic much at all, and don't forget the brass plates, which would have been writen in hebrew and contaning the old testament up to Isiah(a problem in itself) plus some other books. Just how much brass plates would you need to write all this down. I doubt anyone could even lift this much brass. It really is just so unrealistic when you think about it objectively.
Buffalo wrote:They're pretty small already. Maybe he was just trying to make them thicker by after the fact by adding an extra chunk of metal and calling it the "sealed portion"
Well there are a lot of maybes and possiblies. That's what I'm saying. Who really knows? Why is this a criticism?
IRONY
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.