Showdown: 1st Vision vs. PJ&J visit

[_stemelbow]

No, it really doesn't, Stem. This is very clearly Trinitarian doctrine:

http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/mosiah/15.11?lang=eng

And all the readers would have recognized these familiar concepts.

I'm eager to hear your rendition of where the technical concepts of the Trinity explanation are found in these passages? It seems clear to me you are reading them itno this passage, but I'll wait to hear from you.

Regarding Sidney, it's somewhat speculative, but see:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12884&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=42

uh...somewhat speculative seems to be putting it far too nicely. But oh well.

[_honorentheos]

Am I right in thinking that when the Book of Mormon was first written it actually spoke contrary to God and Christ being seperate beings, but was changed at a later date?

Jon,

Yes, the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon contained phrases such as:

1 Nephi 11:18 "Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God"

This verse was changed in 1837 to read: "Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of the Son of God"

There are other direct examples contained in 1 Nephi.

Personally, I find this more interesting when we understand the sequence that the books of the Book of Mormon were written. Mosiah is the earliest book in terms of chronological writing that we have, remembering that the original telling of the story of Lehi and his family was lost as part of the 116 pages. Mosiah was written down while Joseph Smith used a variety of scribes, most notably Martin Harris and his wife Emma.

The majority of the Book of Mormon was written down following the arrival of Oliver Cowdery, and the text of 1 Nephi through Words of Mormon were written down later than the writings of Mosiah.

With this in mind, consider this - Joseph Smith and Modalism

I've made this argument before, but will repeat it in summary. in my opinion, the FV is very important to arguments against the truth claims of the LDS church precisely because the multiple accounts parallel the evolution of Joseph Smith's thoughts on the Godhead. It reveals a historically confirmable human origin to the establishment of the church and it's foundation doctrine.

I think the priesthood issue is best explained by the insights given by David Whitmer - that it was a concept introduced by Sidney Rigdon and reflects Sidney's infatuation with some sort of restoration. It is a latter accretion that, to be taken seriously, had to be redacted into the narrative regarding the establishment of the church.

People can make excuses for it. But the excuses seem burdensome when compared to the many, many other interesting issues regarding the origin of the LDS faith.

[_harmony]

I think the priesthood issue is best explained by the insights given by David Whitmer - that it was a concept introduced by Sidney Rigdon and reflects Sidney's infatuation with some sort of restoration. It is a latter accretion that, to be taken seriously, had to be redacted into the narrative regarding the establishment of the church.

You'd think the church, with access to some of the supposed brightest brains ever born, would come up with something other than the complete lack of foundation for it's main claim to authority.

[_moksha]

The corner stone of the LDS faith is the Book of Mormon. All else doesn't really matter if this book is false.

Nothing like painting us into a corner. Everything matters and has significance in its own right.

[_Willy Law]

The corner stone of the LDS faith is the Book of Mormon. All else doesn't really matter if this book is false. Now if this book is true, then all else falls into place. Thus, the main concern in the beginning was not the first vision but the Book of Mormon.

I hate it when those pesky Prophets get in the way of apologetics.

"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life."

- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign Mag., Nov. 1998, pp.70-71

[_ludwigm]

Any squarish building have FOUR cornerstone.
If one of them doesn't exist then that building will be ... ehm ... worldwide target of google search.

Missing dozens of cornerstones...