Mofluencer Wars

[Bought Yahoo]

I don't mean to change who you are.

[Gadianton]

I watched about 30 min. of the Kwaku interview with Consig and Bill and Kwaku is a cool guy. I had a hard time disagreeing with anything he said in terms of utility. He's absolutely right, the typical kind of apologetics means nothing to the majority of today's youth. Kish is right in castigating him as an "influencer". There is a parallel here to old-school FARMS and their wars with critics. People drawn to that stuff were drawn to the butt-kicking that they thought their guys were doling out to the critics. In a way, Kwaku is like Schryver, except instead of being this weirdo from the mountains who thinks he's Porter Rockwell and "fights to kill", he's a hip-hop party animal that wears a huge chain around his neck. He's a confidence man, but one who a larger percentage of the population, especially the youth, will place confidence in.

Bagging on John D., especially if John D. is falling into the trap and calling the cops and stuff, is exactly the right tactic. I think it was an equally brilliant move on Consig's part to embrace it, and interview him, even though he was also targeted at one point. For a non-member, I don't doubt he's pretty knowledgeable, and some of his arguments based on his experiences as an evangelical were pretty interesting actually. I think we can all agree that apologetics isn't going anywhere based on academic credibility, right? Is anyone going to get back to Cacheman and Physic's guy on domestic grapes in Mesoamerica any time soon?

The New MI doesn't have much either. Very few members have the personality profile to become "postmodern Mormons", enthralled with the ambiguity of truth. Now, how far can his influencing actually get the Church?

Ultimately, I don't see it as a winning battle. I have to wonder where Kwaku himself will be activity wise in 10 years. But you never know, he may end up as a GA. I'd give it 65% inactive or apostate, 30% fade out, but stays a member, and 5% move up high in church ranks.

[Kishkumen]

In retrospect I have to say that the whole idea of apologists giving critics a butt-kicking, or being perceived as doing such, is pretty damn funny. So much empty drama on all sides. We just love our entertainment. LDS apologetics are really dreadful stuff, but then most Mormon discourse is pretty lacking. Mormon history itself, of course, is fascinating. Studying Mormon literature is interesting, of course, but the stuff that comes out of Utah is usually dreck. I can envision the possibility of truly challenging thought, but I can’t imagine it coming from the COB or a church university. This Kwaku nonsense is like the plot of an after school sitcom from the ‘90s. Yeah, the kids eat it up as they continue to go spiritually hungry. Malnourished in the pews with laughter resounding.

[huckelberry]

I watched about 30 min. of the Kwaku interview with Consig and Bill and Kwaku is a cool guy. I had a hard time disagreeing with anything he said in terms of utility. He's absolutely right, the typical kind of apologetics means nothing to the majority of today's youth. Kish is right in castigating him as an "influencer". There is a parallel here to old-school FARMS and their wars with critics. People drawn to that stuff were drawn to the butt-kicking that they thought their guys were doling out to the critics. In a way, Kwaku is like Schryver, except instead of being this weirdo from the mountains who thinks he's Porter Rockwell and "fights to kill", he's a hip-hop party animal that wears a huge chain around his neck. He's a confidence man, but one who a larger percentage of the population, especially the youth, will place confidence in.

Bagging on John D., especially if John D. is falling into the trap and calling the cops and stuff, is exactly the right tactic. I think it was an equally brilliant move on Consig's part to embrace it, and interview him, even though he was also targeted at one point. For a non-member, I don't doubt he's pretty knowledgeable, and some of his arguments based on his experiences as an evangelical were pretty interesting actually. I think we can all agree that apologetics isn't going anywhere based on academic credibility, right? Is anyone going to get back to Cacheman and Physic's guy on domestic grapes in Mesoamerica any time soon?

The New MI doesn't have much either. Very few members have the personality profile to become "postmodern Mormons", enthralled with the ambiguity of truth. Now, how far can his influencing actually get the Church?

Ultimately, I don't see it as a winning battle. I have to wonder where Kwaku himself will be activity wise in 10 years. But you never know, he may end up as a GA. I'd give it 65% inactive or apostate, 30% fade out, but stays a member, and 5% move up high in church ranks.

Gadianton, I share the positive observation you make. I will not dispute shortcomings of youth that have been observed by folks here but I have failed at disliking Kwaku.

A bit ago I watched a you tube debate with him and some Utah Calvinist fanatic. I think Kwaku made excellent points about how Mormon thought can escape certain absurdities and nastiness in some traditional thinking. Is he going to worry about Mormon racism when he is fully aware of racism in every other group religious or not in the the the US? Kwaku even baited this jerk into claiming that God determined Anne Frank would go to hell even before her life began . Kwaku wants to get away from that kind of putrid thought and I do not blame him. Kwaku senses that there is something sick in America and there are things in Mormonism that give him hope for better things.

So I am old and think his picture of Mormon possiblities is incomplete and a bit naïve. Still I wish him well on his journey.

[Moksha]

Is there a new Mormon organization funding character assassination videos, or is it simply a clandestine operation funded by the usual suspects?


---------
Shulem, just be yourself. You are fine that way.

[Dr. Shades]

Shulem, just be yourself. You are fine that way.

But in the Telestial Forum ONLY.

[Kishkumen]

Gadianton, I share the positive observation you make. I will not dispute shortcomings of youth that have been observed by folks here but I have failed at disliking Kwaku.

A bit ago I watched a you tube debate with him and some Utah Calvinist fanatic. I think Kwaku made excellent points about how Mormon thought can escape certain absurdities and nastiness in some traditional thinking. Is he going to worry about Mormon racism when he is fully aware of racism in every other group religious or not in the the the US? Kwaku even baited this jerk into claiming that God determined Anne Frank would go to hell even before her life began . Kwaku wants to get away from that kind of putrid thought and I do not blame him. Kwaku senses that there is something sick in America and there are things in Mormonism that give him hope for better things.

So I am old and think his picture of Mormon possiblities is incomplete and a bit naïve. Still I wish him well on his journey.

I came away from the Mormonism Live interview with Kwaku with a similarly positive impression; then it turned out that he had simply used the interview to promote his stupid Dehlin attack video. (Oh, and Dean Robbers, Kwaku’s complaint about John Dehlin was that John Dehlin did NOT report the retweet to the police, not that he did report it.)

Dean Robbers is right about Kwaku being a confidence man who will be a lot more appealing to the youth than the pillars of Mopologetics could ever be, and he will make some points that sound reasonable or kooky, but people will come away with a favorable impression of his personality regardless. He really has a gift in that respect. But on substance he seems all over the place.

What was that stuff about Joseph Smith being on a council of seven gods in the Mormonism Live interview? Sounds interesting, but whaa....?

[Moksha]

Let's hope Rosebud does not read too much into this apologetic effort to besmirch John Dehlin. Just load your vitriol into the Rocket capsule and step back down the ramp. The Stoner missile crew is busy.

[WhistleBlower]

First, let me be clear that I'm very much not a fan of Kwaku. I'm not a fan of his tactics, his approach or even his mission. I'm an ex-Mormon myself going on a few years now and I find his schtick to be tired and incredibly overwrought.

The only problem is, despite its sensationalist tone, the central premise of his video exposé of John Dehlin is 100% true.

I know this because I know many of the players involved. I have personally reviewed hundreds of documents, including emails, text messages, Facebook messages and more relating to the Rosebud/John Dehlin affair.

There is much, much more information and detail that I am not sharing that John knows about and does not want to become public. The vast majority of the information below is publicly available in various places online (including this very message board) if you know how to follow the breadcrumbs.

The outline of what happened between John and Rosebud and how it goes all the way to the center and the integrity of the Mormon Stories movement is as follows, based on a very thorough examination of all the evidence:



1. John and Rosebud first met virtually through Facebook, as is often the case with people John meets. Rosebud reached out to John to offer praise and support for his work with Mormon Stories. As John often does with followers (especially female followers) who reach out to him, he encouraged her to stay in touch and offered some suggestions on how she could volunteer for the organization. This begins an online relationship in which they communicate frequently.
2. Several months later, John invites Rosebud to an early Mormon Stories event, one of the first in-person events organized by what was then a fairly fledgling organization. This is the first time they meet in person. At the event, John singles her out, finding opportunities to talk to her alone.
3. John quickly began to groom Rosebud, paying special attention to her, showering her with praise for her intellect and her ideas for organizing Mormon Stories events, using his position as the leader of Mormon Stories to manufacture ways for them to be in the same city.
4. As their personal relationship begins to evolve, John begins to find reasons and ways for them to be alone, to strategize on Mormon Stories conferences. During one of these encounters, John privately shares with Rosebud his desires to be a modern-day "September Six" and outlines his plans to agitate the church through his Mormon Stories work so they will eventually excommunicate him. Revealing his plan to her is part of his grooming process of gaining her trust.
5. John and Rosebud continue to work more closely, John continuing to give her more and more high-profile volunteer projects, including actively organizing in-person events. Again, more grooming behavior.
6. At these events, John begins a series of romantic and semi-sexual advances. Rosebud is both flattered and conflicted, due to a series of personal/family struggles (including her marriage being very fragile at the time) she is dealing with and which she has disclosed to John. She later recognizes that, like most predators, he likely targeted her because of these very vulnerabilities.
7. After months of persistence and now that she has been given a portfolio of projects with Mormon Stories, Rosebud begins to acquiesce to John's advances. They engage physically, however, John refuses to allow the emotional affair to advance past certain physical points, as he does not want to be excommunicated for adultery, still holding to his plan of getting the church to excommunicate him for apostasy. John is scared if he goes all the way and his wife or someone else finds out and reports him to church leadership, his plan will be ruined.
8. Rosebud, who at this point is now actively managing entire online communities for Mormon Stories as well as organizing a growing number of events for the organization, begins to grow tired of John's "games" and asks him to stop initiating physical contact with her, including coming to her hotel room or rooms where she is staying at conferences (many of these conferences were held in listener's homes).
9. John initially agrees to do so and keep their relationship professional, but before long he refuses to comply with her requests. He cajoles her at multiple events, begging her to reconsider, knocking on her door late at night and uses his considerable influence over the work she is doing to pressure her to re-engage. In one instance, he comes into her room without her consent, gets into her bed without her consent and gropes her without her consent.
10. Rosebud relents, feeling conflicted both by her feelings for John but now also for the predicament she finds herself in with regards to the communities she has helped to create (including Circling the Wagons), fearing she will lose them if she either rejects John, or engages him and things ever turn south. She feels stuck and scared. She wishes John would stop "playing games" with her.
11. Even in the midst of John's continued advances, he refuses to engage with Rosebud past certain physical/sexual boundaries. Not because he doesn't want to or he is afraid of losing his wife/family but because he, again, doesn't want to ruin his excommunication plan. Rosebud is psychologically and emotionally confused and frustrated by his mercurial behavior. He uses his sexual influence over her in emotionally abusive ways. He will frequently push her away emotionally (sometimes in cruel ways), only to double back and beg to be with her.
12. Meanwhile, Rosebud now finds herself having created wildly successful online communities, in-person event and taking Mormon Stories conferences to an entirely new level. The Mormon Stories/Open Stories board of directors is impressed with Rosebud's work and discussions begin as to how she can play a larger role within the organization. The board, which is led by Joanna Brooks, is unaware of John's and Rosebud's physical/emotional relationship behind the scenes.
13. All of these elements begin to converge into the perfect storm: Rosebud wants John to put up or shut up as it relates to their relationship -- stop stringing me along or leave me alone for good, she says. Meanwhile, John is feeling threatened about Rosebud's continued influence over the Mormon Stories organization, communities, and board. He fears she is amassing too much influence within the organization he created.
14. In fact, Rosebud is eventually made a member of the board of directors. However (as everyone will soon find out), John effectively still controls the organization, due mostly to the fact that he and he alone holds all the website passwords, files, documents, etc.
15. John comes to believe that Rosebud is ultimately too much a threat to his control over the Mormon Stories board and organization as well as a threat to his plan to be excommunicated for apostasy as their physical relationship continues to intensify. He begins denigrating her to Mormon Stories donors and board members through back channels.
16. Things hit the fan. While Rosebud is in the middle of running a conference in a major city, John contacts Joanna Brooks (again, board chair) and tells her of his and Rosebud's secret relationship and tells Joanna he can't work with Rosebud anymore. He wants her gone. He simultaneously changes all of the website passwords so that Rosebud is unable to effectively run the conference.
17. John refuses to change or give up the passwords even when encouraged to by several board members. Remember, Mormon Stories is a non-profit organization, with all assets belonging to the board, not John. The board, now fully engaged for the first real time in years, realizes that John has complete and utter control over all Mormon Stories content and assets.
18. John bans Rosebud from all the online communities she helped create and locks her out of any and all Mormon Stories properties. Board members are powerless to John's demands, since he can effectively turn the lights off any time he wants to.
19. Rosebud reports her side of the "affair" directly to Joanna Brooks, the board chair. Knowing how much power John holds, Rosebud seeks some sort of graceful way to separate from John but wants desperately to keep the communities and work she has created. She asks Joanna to find a way to rectify the situation.
20. Realizing their predicament (esp. as it relates to John's control of the non-profit assets), the board hires a lawyer, who sends a threatening letter to Rosebud, asking her to resign. Joanna covers her bases by simultaneously asking John to resign, fully intending to hire him back, as she knows he has access to all Mormon Stories assets.
21. Rosebud, now realizing that she is being railroaded by John through Joanna and realizing the board is willing to throw her under the bus in order to avoid John walking away with all the Mormon Stories assets and content, refuses to resign. She is then informed by the same lawyer that her relationship with Mormon Stories has been wholly terminated. In other words, she is fired as a result of her relationship with John, who is of course re-hired.
22. The board, including John, then moves into damage control. They shut down all of the in-person Mormon Stories events that Rosebud was previously running. John records a podcast in which he claims this was done because there was rampant drug use and swinging by people and couples at the events. In reality, the conferences are shut down because with Rosebud having been the architect of the gatherings, there is virtually no way to keep them going, either logistically or financially.
23. The entire board resigns (with the exception of two fellow podcasters who are "on payroll") as a result of the entire fiasco and their contempt over John's actions in holding the entire organization hostage through his control of all the assets.
24. In the same podcast referenced above, John announces that he is going back to church. He says the recent events in his life (including shutting down of the conferences) have rekindled a desire to try and make it work with the church. In reality, having survived the episode with Rosebud with his Mormon Stories organization and church membership barely intact, he re-focuses almost exclusively on his plan to get excommunicated for apostasy.
25. Meanwhile, Rosebud files a sexual harassment lawsuit against Mormon Stories. She withdraws the suit, however, after it becomes clear that the non-profit Mormon Stories operates under is exempt from any harassment lawsuit do to its organization size (fewer than six employees).
26. John uses the withdrawal of the suit to claim privately to people that the suit had no merit, when he knows it was only withdrawn due to a technicality.
27. John privately tells various people who ask about the whole fiasco (including Kate Kelly) that Rosebud was simply "crazy" and "in love with me" and there is nothing to the allegations, when he knows there is a trove of documentation proving otherwise.
28. To those who John knows have much more detail about the affair, John's defense is that he and Rosebud were "equals" at the time of her firing, therefore it wasn't harassment. But John knows that is not an accurate description of the entire story, especially the power dynamic between the two as well as John's control over the entire Mormon Stories organization. John held vastly more power over Rosebud and used that power to push her out.
29. Even if John's behavior didn't meet the legal definition of harassment (which has not been disproven), his behavior certainly exceeds the threshold of what any reasonable person would consider sexual misconduct and harassment. There was a distinct power dynamic at play. There was grooming. There was coercion. There were multiple refusals to stop contact. There was silencing. There was manipulation. There was blackmailing. All to cover up and/or mitigate the effects of a quasi-sexual relationship that John initiated and pursued with a subordinate. If #MeToo has taught us anything, it's that men with power will use and then abuse that power and then claim they don't actually have any power (It was consensual!) in order to avoid trouble. It happens over and over again.


Honestly, I don't give two craps about Kwaku. He's a flash in the pan and only using this whole deal to get clicks and win points. He doesn't care about the health of the ex/progMo community, but many of us do.

But regardless of Kwaku's motivations, the bottom line is that he's right that John is an abuser, a manipulator and a liar. Supporting Mormon Stories means supporting that behavior. That doesn't mean anyone needs to support Kwaku as well, though.

The accusations here are important precisely because John has had such a monumental impact on Mormonism/ex-Mormonism and has been instrumental in helping guide many, many people safely out of the church. Much of his work is good and valuable.

That's why it's so frustrating to realize that it's all built on a series of lies and fabrications.
The real story here is 1) How John ultimately created and continues to leverage Mormon Stories primarily for his own personal gain 2) How he lied about and leveraged his personal journey to ex-Mormonism (claiming he was just a simple truth seeker) for that same personal gain and 3) How John mistreats and takes advantage of women, especially the ones who work for him.

Keep in mind this isn't John's only run-in with female subordinates. He had a falling out with podcaster Kristy Money that was widely publicized. He denied any wrongdoing there. You can go find the receipts on that one very easily.

John then hired a female director of operations (Amy Grubbs) several years ago, who was forced to resign due to similar abuses of power by John (although none of them sexual), who was again protected by the board in order to avoid losing assets and, after which, several board members resigned. Amy is bound by a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) which John refuses to release her from, otherwise she would have spoken publicly about John's behavior.

This is a guy who is absolutely willing to do whatever it takes to keep Mormon Stories alive and relevant, including throwing people completely under the bus and actually ruining people's lives. He manipulates people. He threatens and blackmails people. Then he puts on a nice face when the camera is on.

I believe his intentions started out noble. But somewhere along the way he got caught up in the celebrity of it all and the ability to finance his PhD and now completely support himself off the podcast. It has literally become a six-figure career.

This is all very unfortunate considering all the good Mormon Stories content has done. Once you see behind the curtain, you have to be able to separate John the person from the John the face of Mormon Stories. They're truly two very very different people.

But John is a classic narcissist -- and I believe he suffers from at least one personality disorder. The more dedicated he became to Mormon Stories, the more dependent he became on it to support him and his family, and the more hellbent on retaining control he became. At this point, very little of John's heart is really in the work. He needs to keep the train moving, the clicks coming and the episodes downloaded in order to survive. He knows this and it keeps him up at night. This explains the inane kind of behavior like calling 911 about an internet meme. He needs the drama.

At the end of the day, John is terrified of becoming irrelevant. He's more terrified of that than he is of being exposed as having had an affair and being an abuser.

There's a ton of great content out there for people trying to find their way out of the church. You don't need to support John and Mormon Stories in order to get out and get out healthy.

[Bought Yahoo]

Lots of weird posts about John Dehlin. How much of it is true?