Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_madeleine]

Am I correct in thinking that in terms of Christian religions only Mormonism thinks that salvation doesn't mean the same as exaltation?

Yes.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'll say one more thing. I suspect - only suspect, have no proof - that part of the reason folks insist Mormonism isn't a Christian religion is to scare the mainstream Christians away from it. I think that, in its early days, Mormonism was deeply resented for, so to speak, "stealing" some people away from mainstream Christianity.

beastie,

My attention for this topic is really starting to fizzle today, but I'll see if that changes later in the day. Anyway, I started catching up on page 8 and noticed this post by you.

I need a little clarity on something here. Are you saying or implying that Christian's mean to scare other mainstream's away from Mormonism on account of the early history of Mormonism?

I can't figure out if those two remarks are connected or not.

Anyway, so....let's say they are connected. Why would Christians try to scare other mainstreamer's (oh, I like that term!) away from Mormonism?

[_beastie]

beastie,

My attention for this topic is really starting to fizzle today, but I'll see if that changes later in the day. Anyway, I started catching up on page 8 and noticed this post by you.

I need a little clarity on something here. Are you saying or implying that Christian's mean to scare other mainstream's away from Mormonism on account of the early history of Mormonism?

I can't figure out if those two remarks are connected or not.

Anyway, so....let's say they are connected. Why would Christians try to scare other mainstreamer's (oh, I like that term!) away from Mormonism?

My interest is fading, as well.

Hoops asked something about this comment, as well, so hopefully this reply will work for both.

What I meant was that in the early days of the LDS church, it was "stealing" members, sometimes in significant numbers, from more mainstream churches. Of course I think that the mainstream churches had many concerns about Mormonism, but I do believe losing members to its rank was one concern. I think that sometimes extreme statements were made about Mormonism to scare potential converts.

And, while I don't think today's mainstream churches are particularly concerned about losing members to Mormonism (secularism is probably a greater threat), I think that the history may have created a pattern of antipathy.

So the idea is that mainstream religions should warn their members to stay away from Mormonism because it isn't Christian. This may not be due so much to fear of losing members today, but a historical pattern which, at its point of origin, may partly be based on that fear.

But what I don't understand is that it appears that mainstream Christians today aren't so much saying "HEY, stay away from Mormonism because it's of the devil and lead you to hell!" but rather saying "HEY stay away from Mormonism because it isn't Christian." Yet, at the same time, conceding that individual Mormons may, indeed, by Christian. So apparently the view is not really concern that these people will go to hell if they join the LDS church..... but what is the concern then? If not believing in the EXACT right definition of the godhead doesn't mean they're going to hell, what is the concern?

In other words, do Mormons have just as much chance as getting into heaven as mainstream Christians, or does their association with Mormonism mean that they'll be led astray and hence into hell?

[_Hoops]

In other words, do Mormons have just as much chance as getting into heaven as mainstream Christians, or does their association with Mormonism mean that they'll be led astray and hence into hell?

I won't indulge in parsing the words of your question, since i think i know what you mean, though I would not have phrased it this way.

Of course. Just like anyone else. However, as I mentioned above, I think it is substantially more difficult to understand Grace and Forgiveness and Compassion, and everything else associated with being Christian, within a LDS Church framework. However, God can draw people to Himself within Mormonism, Atheism, ... even Baptists.

I do not believe a Christian who is a Mormon can be led astray and hence into hell. I do believe Mormonism does not teach Christian core principles and thus that person can not enjoy True freedom we have in Christ. I do believe the LDS church is not Christian. I believe LDS church is unhealthy, divisive, exclusionary in a nonreligious way (religion more often than not is exclusionary, as it should be) and snotty. Thus, why would a Christian want to be a member of a non Christian church? That doesn't make sense to me. It is on this basis that I would recommend anyone avoid the LDS church. Avoid passionately.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie,

My attention for this topic is really starting to fizzle today, but I'll see if that changes later in the day. Anyway, I started catching up on page 8 and noticed this post by you.

I need a little clarity on something here. Are you saying or implying that Christian's mean to scare other mainstream's away from Mormonism on account of the early history of Mormonism?

I can't figure out if those two remarks are connected or not.

Anyway, so....let's say they are connected. Why would Christians try to scare other mainstreamer's (oh, I like that term!) away from Mormonism?

My interest is fading, as well.

Hoops asked something about this comment, as well, so hopefully this reply will work for both.

What I meant was that in the early days of the LDS church, it was "stealing" members, sometimes in significant numbers, from more mainstream churches. Of course I think that the mainstream churches had many concerns about Mormonism, but I do believe losing members to its rank was one concern. I think that sometimes extreme statements were made about Mormonism to scare potential converts.

And, while I don't think today's mainstream churches are particularly concerned about losing members to Mormonism (secularism is probably a greater threat), I think that the history may have created a pattern of antipathy.

So the idea is that mainstream religions should warn their members to stay away from Mormonism because it isn't Christian. This may not be due so much to fear of losing members today, but a historical pattern which, at its point of origin, may partly be based on that fear.

But what I don't understand is that it appears that mainstream Christians today aren't so much saying "HEY, stay away from Mormonism because it's of the devil and lead you to hell!" but rather saying "HEY stay away from Mormonism because it isn't Christian." Yet, at the same time, conceding that individual Mormons may, indeed, by Christian. So apparently the view is not really concern that these people will go to hell if they join the LDS church..... but what is the concern then? If not believing in the EXACT right definition of the godhead doesn't mean they're going to hell, what is the concern?

In other words, do Mormons have just as much chance as getting into heaven as mainstream Christians, or does their association with Mormonism mean that they'll be led astray and hence into hell?

Thanks for clarifying what you meant, beastie. I, and likely you, have participated in this topic so many times over the years and that's why I find it not so interesting except that I might learn something new from another person's thinking.

I can only speak from the perspective of my own experiences in my own former church that did have "cult classes" at one point and a young assistant minister at the time, who was passionate about this topic. So...

I don't think that most mainstreamer's are even remotely aware of the roots of Mormonism with regards to early converts. I think that when researching Mormon history, what mainstreamer's are looking for is ammunition if you will, to discredit Joseph Smith and material with which to challenge the doctrine.

Virtually all of the mainstreamer's that I knew from my church (who might not fit the classification since it was an SBC) were not in the least interested in losing "numbers", if you will, to the LDS church. It wasn't even on the radar.

The number one concern among my fellow congregation members and this is wholly true for myself, is the fact that we believed that LDS were involved in a religion that was based on a con and we were concerned for their eternal destination.

When I began researching Mormonism, I had not one ounce of opposition to Mormonism at all. I, in fact, started researching the religion in order to defend my LDS friend and her family, and prove my pastor wrong about certain assertions he made.

I am pretty sure you can imagine me arming myself with knowledge in order to debate my own pastor. If you can't imagine that, then you don't know me well enough yet. :-)

At some point in my research, and I can't recall the exact trigger point, I started to develop a feeling of total outrage that my friend was involved in something that I saw as a total lie. I wasn't angry at her, I was angry at the church, the religion and it's founder. I felt that she was being raised in a religious vacuum and didn't know what Christianity really was.

So, that's my account of at least part of my journey with Mormonism.

Okay, my train of thought is fizzling now as well. Let's look at this one clump of comments that you made and maybe I can respond to it.

"HEY stay away from Mormonism because it isn't Christian."

Not exactly. I would rephrase that as "stay away from Mormonism because it isn't what it claims to be and you may not realize this until several years into participation."

Yet, at the same time, conceding that individual Mormons may, indeed, by Christian.

I know this is confusing. I personally believe that God has the power to access every one of us. What I notice on these types of boards is that there are some LDS who seem to reply to questions with well, canned responses, some who sprinkle around certain phrases that superficially make it appear as if they are speaking the same language as mainstream Christian's and then, I see a third category of LDS.

In this third category of LDS are people like Jason Bourne and Liz. They know their Bible, not simply in terms of it's use in Mormonism, but they know it for what it represents. They know it textually, process it contextually and they know it spiritually. It is in their spiritual bloodstream, if you will.

If I didn't know differently, when I read their posts on this board, I would mistake them for EV's.

Liz made a post on this thread that I, as a Protestant, could have written. She isn't superficially faking it, she isn't making it "sound" like Christianity, she isn't even putting out what I think is the LDS version of who Jesus is, she's stating what she believes Jesus to be and I think it is fully in line with Biblical scripture.

Perhaps this is why I have grown to identify more with NOM's as fellow believer's. They have somehow filtered out certain aspects of Mormonism and it has brought them more in line with Christianity.

Please note that I do not think that either group is "better" than the other. I am simply trying to delineate between the two sets of doctrines that distinguish Mormonism from Christianity and giving examples of how I see that in terms of people's statements on these boards which is the frame of reference that you and I have together.

That doesn't mean that I think their belief is superior or inferior to mainstream Christians, I am saying that what I see in their words and in their acts, makes me identify them as Christian where I wouldn't identify other LDS as that.

So apparently the view is not really concern that these people will go to hell if they join the LDS church..... but what is the concern then?

I disagree. That is the ultimate concern and just below that, is the concern that people are being lied to. Just as many ex-Mo's believe they were lied to....many mainstream Christians believe that LDS are being lied to.

If not believing in the EXACT right definition of the godhead doesn't mean they're going to hell, what is the concern?

The concern is that Joseph told a lie and they are living it unaware. Again, just as ex-Mo's who believe they were lied to are passionate in their opposition to Mormonism and presenting the truth as they see it, so are Christians.

I have to admit that I get a little frustrated when I see comments on a thread like this to the effect that Christian's are saying their "brand" of Christianity is better than another "brand".

This board and others like it, are filled with accounts by ex-Mo's who have gone back into church and posed provocative questions to their own Ward members for the purpose of exposing what they believe is the fraud that Joseph perpetuated on unwitting believer's.

That is exactly the same reason that many Christian's openly oppose or challenge Mormonism.

Does the fact that it's coming from another religious group make the concern that people are being lied to any less valid?

In other words, do Mormons have just as much chance as getting into heaven as mainstream Christians, or does their association with Mormonism mean that they'll be led astray and hence into hell?

My answer to that is that I don't know, beastie. You are reading the words of one who believes that God can access people wherever they are, whoever they are, regardless of their culture and reveal himself to them.

Do I think that the Jesus of Mormonism is NOT the Jesus of the Bible?

Yes.

Do I think that Mormonism teaches concepts that contradict the Bible?

Yes.

But then again, I do see people like Jason Bourne and Liz who fully know the Jesus of the Bible in the same way as any other Christian does, and I believe there are many more like them.

I think, bottom line, is that if one is seeking a spiritual relationship with and fuller understanding of Jesus Christ, regardless of what church they belong to or belong to no church at all, that they will achieve that.

I also think that while I give myself permission to judge many of the doctrines of Mormonism as non-Christian, I do not give myself permission to judge the spiritual hearts of other human beings. I can look for evidence of Christianity in another person (their state beliefs, their words, and their actions), offer impressions, but I am not the ultimate judge of who is and isn't Christian.

In other words, I can evaluate and draw conclusions about the religion and it's doctrines, but not the human heart.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hoops

However, God can draw people to Himself within Mormonism, Atheism, ... even Baptists.

See???? Hoops expressed the same idea as I did, beastie.

[_Yoda]

Jersey Girl made a comment that what I stated here is in line with what she, herself, as a mainstream Christian believes.

I would like to point out that what I stated below was not simply my personal belief as a NOM, as she somewhat implied. What I stated is, in fact, the core of LDS doctrine.

My frustration lies in the fact that this doctrine is not emphasized enough in our modern congregations. But make no mistake. What I stated below is LDS doctrine through and through. And, I'm confident that Simon, Nehor, Dan, Jason, Stem, and BC would all confirm this.

Jason,

Let me throw a couple of other things out to you before I go. I know that you and I have discussed these things in the past, but why not do it again?

One of the main objections I have regarding Mormonism is how Mormonism views Jesus Christ. When someone tells me that Jesus was a man who worked his way to exaltation, I recoil at the thought of that. Further, when someone tells me that Jesus "work on the cross" saves us from "death and hell" and isn't sufficient without specific works, that also turns me away from thinking that Mormonism=Christianity.

I see Mormonism as a Christian heresy.

Now, I know you know what my perspectives are, Jason. But let's see if these comments help at all to drive the discussion along.

I also don't know how Mormon's square it when they say that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in terms of the restoration of the primitive Christian church regarding polygamy and populating other worlds type doctrines. If Heavenly Father is the god of this world, where are his other children? And if he has more, how does that make Jesus his only begotten?

Whew!
:-)

Jesus was not a man who worked his way to exaltation. He was the perfect Son of the Father, chosen before the world was. Christ was a God, and was perfect before He came here. He did not achieve exaltation based on what he did on this earth. He had already achieved exaltation before He came here. Christ specifically came to this earth to fulfill the law of Moses and the law of sacrifice, and to save man.

He is the only begotten of the Father because he is the physical Son of both God the Father and Mary. Also, Christ is the God of this earth, not Heavenly Father.

[_malaise]

Well, that's not my view, so I don't know how to answer that.

What is not your view? Do you think god sends non-Christians to hell? That's pretty indefensible unless you accept a bunch of hyper-Calvinist stuff.

Yep, one could choose to be a conscientious (I'm glad you spelled it first!) objector, but why? That implies being dismissive, rather than engaged. God wants engagement, participation, getting one's hands dirty, if you will.
As you know from your episcopalian days, the opposite of faith isn't disbelief, it's ambivalance.

If I get involved with god can I convince him not to torture innocent people for all eternity?

[_Hoops]

What is not your view? Do you think god sends non-Christians to hell? That's pretty indefensible unless you accept a bunch of hyper-Calvinist stuff.

If I get involved with god can I convince him not to torture innocent people for all eternity?

Whew!! I don't even know where to begin here. And I suspect you're not really interested in discussing it, but would rather just make accusations.

1) That God sends anyone to hell. 2) Non Christians may certainly go to hell. What is a Christian? Was Noah a Christian? 3) I lean toward Calvinism. 4)I'm not talking about getting "involved" with God. I'm talking about repentance so one can participate in life. That is true worship. 5)I don't believe God tortures innocent people. What/who is an innocent anyway? Innocent of what? What does being innocent mean and why do we have to accept your definnition of that?

[_Jason Bourne]

Religious belief is not rational, but giving it no respect (which is all the respect it deserves) is rational and allows more honest discussions to take place.

You still will not get far with asinine remarks like Mormons believe is Space Gods. Technically any religion that believes in an extra terrestrial God believes is Space Gods. But it is still an asinine way to put it.

I'm not going to pretend that Mormonism does not have a clearly false and bizarre theological system, because it does. If that offends people that is their problem.

I was not asking you to pretend anything. There is much in many religions, including LDS that I do not believe or agree. But being offensive does not foster discussion. If you want to be an arrogant ass about things have at it though. If that offends you that is your problem.

Last I checked Mormons do not believe is space Gods. Mormons allow that there could be other gods creating universes and plans of salvation for their creations. It is not a fundamental doctrine of the Church however and there are lots of varying opinions about this.

I don't think this is correct.

Well you are wrong.

Most Mormons believe that they will be able to become gods just like Heavenly Father did if they follow the teachings of Mormonism. You can deny this if you want, but I see no reason to dance around it.

I essentially said as much. Mormon believe that other gods exist. And yes they believe they may become a god as well. What exactly that means and what they will be doing is even debated among Mormons. Mormons certainly don't worship these other gods nor even think about their existence all that much.

Mormons worship God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They believe these three are One God in might, mind, power, purpose, glory, thoughts and actions.

[/quote]Clearly false.[/quote]

Clearly not false.

Jesus is not merely a part of god in Mormon doctrine, he is just the most acclaimed of his children.

Jesus was God's only begotten and One with God before this life in the way I described above. He is the First Born of all Creation. Check out the Book of Moses, various sections of the D&C, the Book of Mormon especially the title page as well as much of the New Testament.

Do you know the story of Satan's plan or not? You don't seem to have a firm grasp of Mormon theology.

No I do have a firm grasp of LDS theology. I think it is you who does not.

Mormons believe that somehow these three divinely indwell each other.

Does that mean they are one mind? Please clearly explain what you mean by this.

I said as much already.

They do not believe they are one substance or essence. They believe they are separate and distinct but are still one as I have described.

No, that is what traditional Christians believe.

Mormons believe they ARE NOT one substance or essence, orthodox Christianity does.

The believe the Father and son are persons that are embodied and that the Holy Ghost is a spirit personage. They believe the Son was and is the First Born of all creation and the only begotten of the Father from the beginning. The believe the name of Jesus Christ is the only one where men and women can be saved. Faith in Christ, repentance, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost justify men and women before God.


Mormons do not believe in eternal security. Thus Enduring to the end or abiding in Christ by obeying God's commands, doing good works are what keeps them in the covenant relationship and thus they remain justified. These steps also lead to sanctification. Mormons also believe to receive the highest reward-exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of God-a person must receive additional ordinances and make additional covenants in their temples. However, I believe it can be demonstrated that to enter the celestial kingdom Faith, repentance, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost will open that door to them.

Then you are a heretic, according to Mormonism.

Hardly.