Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_thews]

Do you deny Joseph Smith changed the Bible to write himself into it?

Where did Joseph Smith write himself into the Bible?

From LDS.org on Sunday school lessons:
http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

h. Both he and his father would be named Joseph (Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 50:33; 2 Nephi 3:15).

[_beastie]

Here's what doesn't make sense to me.

According to some EVs, I am saved.

About 16 or so years ago, when I was in the midst of losing my faith in the LDS church, I started watching televangelists. I did not understand why, after all my years of faith, I still didn't have elusive "peace of Christ." Since I knew I was losing faith in the LDS church, (I may have already lost faith altogether by that point, I don't remember), I decided to try what the EVs were saying on TV. One day, I prayed along with the EV and accepted Jesus as my Savior. Of course, I had already done so, but I wanted to make sure. This was completely sincere on my part.

So, I'm saved.

And I did it again, later when I became an Episcopalian. The Episcopalian church talks more about "grace" than being saved, but basically it's the same idea, so once again I prayed to God and accepted the grace of Christ, and fully rejected the "works" emphasis of Mormonism.

So, I'm saved.

According to Hoops (and other EVs I've talked to) being saved means that ALL of your sins are forgiven, even your future sins. So my sin of disbelief is forgiven. I'm still saved.

This just strikes me as so illogical. I, an atheist, am "saved", but Mormons, who believe in Jesus, albeit with differences in description, may not be saved unless they overcome their Mormonism or something. And even if they're saved, they probably won't have True freedom in Christ, because they've been taught incorrect theology.

How does any of this make sense?

[_thews]

Can those who say Mormonism is not Chrsitian give a definition of Christian so we can at least have some grounds from which to discuss this?

The definition of the word encompasses the doctrine accepted and the doctrine rejected.

I'd think Christian is defined as one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ, including the teaching that He is THE Savior. Who disagrees and why?

Disagree, unless the "teachings of Christ" are based on the Bible. Joseph Smith's ever-changing theology (Book of Mormon = monotheistic and Book of Abraham = henotheistic) doesn't fall under the same umbrella as a "Christian" church, because it's defined very differently. Again, what is different is far more relevant that was is attempted to be interpreted as the same (father and Son being two). Jesus is God in man... they are one in Christian theology and not two personages as those who believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God believe. This is very simple, as Christianity doesn't embrace Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, but rather a false prophet of God. The doctrine of Joseph Smith and the changes made to the Bible by Joseph Smith are only accepted by Mormons (LDS) and rejected by Christians... they are not the same doctrine or theology.

[_thews]

I have repeatedly asked those who think the Mormonism diverges too much from Orthodoxy to be considered Christian what there top three complaints are. List them out then let's do a comparison and contrast. I have some ideas as to what we might see but I think it would be good to do this exercise. Jersey did post a big one about God and God being self existent as did KA. I talked a bit about these a bit but maybe it is worth a bit more.

1) Christians are damned per the prophet of God Mormons accept.

Joseph Smith - When asked, "Will all be damned but Mormon?" he replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119).

2) Every single bit of doctrine is completely different between Christian churches and LDS (Mormon) churches.

3) The entire concept of God is different, to include the three levels of heaven (Mormon), Jesus and God being two personages, and the requirement to accept polygamy as a prerequisite to entering God's glory.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/132.shtml

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

In a nutshell Jason, Mormon doctrine and the words of the Mormon prophet of God damns Christians for failing to accept it.

[_Yoda]

The definition of the word encompasses the doctrine accepted and the doctrine rejected.

I respectfully disagree.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary states the following for the primary definition of a Christian:

1. One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

When I think of what a Christian is, this is the definition that first comes to mind. I don't immediately start parsing doctrinal tenets of my church, or any other church.

On the basis of the above definition, Mormons are, indeed, Christians.

[_Hoops]

According to Hoops (and other EVs I've talked to) being saved means that ALL of your sins are forgiven, even your future sins. So my sin of disbelief is forgiven. I'm still saved.

If you are a Christian, then of course they are. Of course I have no idea if you are or not.

This just strikes me as so illogical. I, an atheist, am "saved",

Me to. I'm glad I don't believe this.

Mormons, who believe in Jesus, albeit with differences in description, may not be saved unless they overcome their Mormonism or something.

Oh, what's the point. You have no interest other than to score rhetorical points.

And even if they're saved, they probably won't have True freedom in Christ, because they've been taught incorrect theology.

Why is this so difficult to get? To really enjoy basketball, it's best to know how the game is played.

How does any of this make sense?

It does make it more difficult to understand when you don't even bother to try and understand. But, it's okay, you'll be cheeered on grandly and ecstatically. That's all that really matters anyway.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Will the god of Mormonism, whomever you may consider him to be, allow Jihadists who murder men, women, and children an opportunity to receive the Gospel in Spirit Prison, & subsequently an opportunity to progress toward Godhood?

V/R
Dr. Cameron NC for Me

[_jon]

Will the god of Mormonism, whomever you may consider him to be, allow Jihadists who murder men, women, and children an opportunity to receive the Gospel in Spirit Prison, & subsequently an opportunity to progress toward Godhood?

V/R
Dr. Cameron NC for Me

Don't be silly, it's not like they've tried to give...say....Hitler the gospel by baptising him after he's dead...

[_beastie]

This just strikes me as so illogical. I, an atheist, am "saved",

Me to. I'm glad I don't believe this.

YOU said that being saved means ALL your sins are forgiven, even future ones.

So what, is it backsies now on my being saved?

Or was it a temporary salvation? Conditional on something?

by the way, who is cheering me on so enthusiastically?

They must be doing silent cheers. Maybe they're mimes.

[_thews]

What "Christian" church believes in this "restoration" as the LDS believe? Answer = none. Mormons believe this... they are the only ones to believe this

Thews, I have been round and round with you on your reasoning and watched it with others. I mean no disrespect for you but I find your line of argument lacking and insubstantial as it relates to this question. I agree with Dan Peterson's arguments he made with you on this same point. I do not think we are going to agree on this.

So you agree with Dr. Peterson... what relevance does this have? Conversely, I find your bias being injected into this question as I honestly don't believe you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Is this correct?

So my only comment here is that Mormons are Christian just like Hispanics are human, Africans are human and Asians are humans.

If you wish to lump all theists into one bucket your argument makes sense... to you. Using your argument, Jews are Christians because a Christian can choose to define the doctrine they accept/reject.

It does not matter whether all of Christianity rejects Smith as a prophet.

Yes it absolutely does, as defining your beliefs as LDS or Mormon implies belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. Defining your beliefs as Christian implies you reject Joseph Smith and the Mormon doctrine as that of a flase prophet of God.

If his teachings are based in a requirement that one must except Jesus Christ as Son of God for salvation then that is a Christian based religion.

A "Christian" religion is in no way shape or form based on Mormon doctrine. Why is this so hard for you to acknowledge the different set of doctrine... completely different.

One can argue that it is not orthodox or historically accurate and say it is heretical.

On can argue anything if the bucket they choose to fill is large enough. Again, what is different Jason regarding doctrine?

And the question really is as I and others have tried to pin someone down on is what things are required for a denomination to be considered Christian and how far can one diverge from that before the Church is no longer Christian?

Christian churches are defined by the doctrine they place faith in. Only Mormons (or LDS) place faith in Mormon doctrine and Joseph Smith as a prophet of God... the only ones. Using your argument, how does this relate to Judaism vs. Christianity? Do they fall under the same umbrella? Why?

I may biased. Most of us are. So are you. So what?

I fail to see your point. I'm not attempting to make an argument on something I don't believe in.

I think one should stick to what the Church teaches yes. But we can discuss other speculative teachings as well. I am well aware of the problematic ones. However, I think one should look at what the Church is today when working on this issue. I think the fact that the LDS leaders have been all over the place on lots of different things causes questions as to whether they were really prophets. But I think what the Church recognizes and emphasizes today is what is should be judged by as far is it being considered Christian.

You're losing me. believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and you'll follow Mormon doctrine. Reject the teachings of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and place belief in the Bible and then you'd be Christian. This isn't semantics, but based on the doctrine accepted/rejected.

For example, I think it is clear the BYs Adam God teachings were way out there and speak to the fact that he likely was not getting answers as a prophet should about who and what God is. So I question his authority. But the LDS Church does not teach or accept AG at all. So when if comes to discussing whether what the Church believes about the nature of God today and whether what it does believe makes in not Christian AG is not fair game.

You are playing the semantic game here in attempting to draw parallel lines. You either accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, the "prophets" that followed and their teachings, or you reject it. If you find middle ground and accept some and reject some, I fail to see the logic, but it doesn't change the definition of the doctrine.

No I do not deny it. What does that have to do with the discussion though?

By accepting Joseph Smith's version of the Bible (placing faith in Joseph Smith a s a prophet of God), then the Bible is different... it is not Christian; it's very relevant.

No not really, I think I am just trying to present what the LDS Church believes today in light of this question fairly.

Attempting to draw similarities while failing to point out the differences is not a fair comparison in my opinion. Again, what is different?

No not at all and you always fall back to this. I have told you before I doubt Smith was what he claimed. I have also told you I doubt that any one ever was really a prophet in the way I used to believe about a prophet. But I still like the Christian religion. And I think the LDS Church is part of that species. That is it really. It may be heretical and it may have some ideas other Christian faiths cannot buy into but it still is part of the species.

You're making my point for me Jason. I believe Joseph Smith was a charlatan and a false prophet of God... I have no doubt. This question is binary... do you believe Joseph Smith a prophet of God or not? If you do, then you accept Mormon doctrine. If you do not, then you reject it. I reject it as false and have no issues answering the question.