If Adam and Eve are not real and if no literal fall

[_huckelberry]

...So it seems to me that take away a literal Adam and a literal fall then why not take away the need for a literal savior?

Exactly. We only need a metaphorical savior to save us from a metaphorical fall.

It seems most everybody sees these comments as making sense. I am trying to figure out where the seperation of world views lie causing the comments to sound so baseless to me.

My understanding of Christianity is the Jesus intends to save us from evil not some fall. From a fall??? that's silly. Human evil is a real problem.

Is this some LDS thing faded from my memory. Who thinks we are to be saved from some ancient fall? I do not read that in the New Testament. I think it is clear that it is present personal evil which is the issue at stake.
I do remember a comment paralleling Adam introducing evil to Jesus introducing to the human family the medicine for the disease. That is a function of human interrelatedness.

[_huckelberry]

The serpent story is good scripture. It however is not the story of the start of evil. It also does not explain evil which remains mysterious despite being so selfevidently real. The problem predates the story within the terms of the story. There is a serpent at odds with God who manipulate the humans. The humans despite being given the enourmous advantage of walking with God and being immortal find the serpent more to their taste. They are not ideal they are not admirable. They are childish and selfish. Common forms of human evil.

So clearly the picture is of a world where humans have the seeds of evil and there is already active evil eager to take advantage of those humans seeds.

I think to find the point of the story one might look at the parallel stories which repeat at crucial locations in the Bible. The story consists of a point where there is a special closeness between humans and God where in covenent promis is established. Intead of fidelity from the human side betrayal occurs. The disaster at Sinai with the golden calf and the prophetic understanding of the Babylonian captivity are the same basic story. Then perhaps most importantly the story repeats with Jesus entry into Jerusalem,palm sunday, greeted with love and hope but is then betrayed.

[_Aristotle Smith]

It seems to me that for Christians the fall of Adam is a critical factor in creating the need for a savior.

There is a need for a fall of sorts. But the only thing that is really needed is the notion that humans were created in the image of God with the capacity to obey him, but chose not to.

It certainly seems to be for Latter day Saints and has been argued as such by some of the more literal and orthodox LDS leaders such as McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith.

LDS theology puts a lot more emphasis on the need for a real person named Adam and a real person named Eve. Otherwise why bother with the book of Moses, putting Adam as Michael, inserting Michael into the creation story, Adam-God speculations, seeing Adam in section 138, etc. The bottom line is that Adam gets inserted into lots of LDS theology and thought, and his being an actual person has a lot riding on it. Because of that, you pretty much have to have a literal Adam experience a literal fall.

In orthodox Christianity, the idea of Adam is much more subdued and flexible, and there is much less need for him to be a real person. There still is a need for a fall, but I take it as axiomatic that humans are fallen, evil, and in need of a savior. Indeed Chesterton said that the only empirically verifiable doctrine of Christianity is that of original sin. Since most of Genesis 1-11 is meant to be theological history, not empirical history, it's a lot easier to separate the literalness of those events from the ideas they promote.

[_Aristotle Smith]

Also, I enjoyed this lecture on Paul, Adam, Evolution by Peter Enns. He's a fairly conservative Protestant scholar who has been focusing on issues of Adam and evolution for some time.

http://peterennsonline.com/2011/02/22/a ... evolution/

If you like what he has to say, he is publishing a book on Adam and evolution soon:

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Adam-Bi ... 158743315X

for what it's worth.

[_bcspace]

How so?

We can find no period in the existence of earth where humanity or any other species enjoyed a deathless existence.

How would you detect such a thing? How long did the state last and was it local?

[_huckelberry]

Hi Aristotle. I am glad I am not the only person here seeing past this odd being saved from a mythical fall thing. The fact that you have looked far enough into non LDS Christianity to be able to see outside the LDS assumptions may be the reason.

I think your point about flexible views on the fall is important. That we need saving from sin and rebellion against God would be a basic fundamental Christian view. The exact understanding of the fall is not so much so. So people view Adam as starting as an sort of super human we could aspire to return to. That is a lot of imaginary reading to my view. A lot of emphasis on the fall may be connectede to Augustine. In his view one might associate a repulsive machinery to keep hell full of babies and Buddists. On the other hand his thoughts about the fall point to a connectedness between humans wherein we share responsiblity. I think that a positeve dimension to his thought. When one goes to a Catholic service one askes ones neighbors to pray for you, and they ask the same. I respect that and see a fundamental Christian principal therein.

[_Buffalo]

How would you detect such a thing? How long did the state last and was it local?

In the case of humans, you'd find evidence of habitation (dwellings, pottery, old cooking fires, etc) but no bones.

"Local" is a red herring. The scriptures say there was no death, period. Let's not beg the question.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have not forgotten this thread I have just been very busy. I will try to get some responses to some very good comments here in the next day or so.

[_Hoops]

I have not forgotten this thread I have just been very busy. I will try to get some responses to some very good comments here in the next day or so.

Oh, were you on this thread somewhere?

[_Chap]

We can find no period in the existence of earth where humanity or any other species enjoyed a deathless existence.

How would you detect such a thing? How long did the state last and was it local?

I am currently living in a locally death-free environment, and so are a lot of other people.