Caffeine is bad for you spiritually

[_Quasimodo]

I can not determine how much spirituality a person has. A person has to self-determine what their spirituality is. A caffeine drinker can come up with a baseline spirituality and give up caffeine and determine on their own if their spirituality has increased.

I've been drinking decaffeinated for a few months now. I'm still an agnostic. Do you think taking up ayahuasca will help me find God?

[_Themis]

JAK,

Yes it is my belief that caffeine is the critical component within the Word of Wisdom that can cause a decline is spirituality. I have seen others who have given up caffeine and have expressed to me a greater spirituality.

It doesn't surprise me that most people who give up something they consider bad are going to feel greater spirituality/In tune with nature/etc as a result. I think it may have little to do with what they gave up.

Also the church has never taught that caffeine was against the WoW. In fact, it originally only meant hot drinks, or hot temperature, which was the thinking at the time. When society realized hot temperature was not detrimental to health, the church eventually reinterpreted the WoW to mean coffee and tea, but no where do they say it is because of caffeine.

[_JAK]

Post Reference

Indoctrination and those who indoctrinate are the enemies of genuine intellectual freedom, science, and discovery, CSA. Your writings convey that you are indeed one who lacks genuine intellectual freedom. While you’re free to “believe” anything you wish, fortunately, you are not free to stifle intellectual inquiry of the very kind which has produced the very technology through which you and I are communicating at this moment.

Fortunately as well, you are not free to stifle the advance of the acquisition of information and knowledge about an enormous host of things far beyond what appears to be your present capacity.

Superstition and religion are of similar texture. They manufacture conclusion in the absence of information. Superstition crafted over time becomes religious dogma. If you recognize nothing else, you surely recognize that today there is an enormous variety of superstitious, religious views. You, it appears, attempt to entertain one narrow perspective as if it, alone, contained the only correct view.

In that narrowness, in 2011, you have my sympathies. For all of us, it is a great benefit that you and your religious dogma do not control the advance and the accumulation of information upon which new discoveries are made.

CSA stated: “Yes it is my belief that caffeine is the critical component…”

Consider your configuration “…is the critical component…” I added the bold type. By use of “the” rather than a word like a, by implication, wine, mixed alcoholic drinks, marijuana, cloistral (found in many foods), all these are not “the critical component…” which you find caffeine to be. You don’t mention them, but only attack caffeine as “the critical component…” It’s a most odd position to have taken, but it’s your position.

What is “spiritual”? At my hotel is a sign above a door, “Wine & Spirits.” In A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, we have “the spirit of Christmas past.” We have “the spirit of Christmas present,” and we have “the spirit of Christmas yet to come.”

Your use of a word like “spiritual” begs articulated definition even within your use of the term.

There is no refutation in your language to my comments regarding your reference “caffeine.” Rather, you just continue with assertion absent any rejoinder in dialogue regarding: “Medical science has not found moderate consumption of caffeine a specific or general threat.” Post #2Reference

In short, you dodge intellectual engagement here.

JAK

[_Pollypinks]

How about giving up the prophet for a while? Go on your own instincts and prayer.

[_cafe crema]

café Crema,

I don't think, he is approaching God about what possible changes could be made to the Word of Wisdom. That shouldn't keep us from finding out ourselves on how best to live. What part of being self directed in these things and still following the prophet is difficult to understand?

My intent is not to judge those who drink caffeinated beverages, but to find out and to help others to discover and find greater spirituality.

I for one, think the LDS church is not doing enough in defining and interpreting the Word of Wisdom in terms that could be used in this day and age

.

It's quite obvious from the statements of yours that I bolded you are going beyond being self directed and questioning the Prophets' leadership of the church. Twice now you have said you don't think he's approaching the issue of caffeine correctly and that you have the correct approach. Not only that but those you are counseling are not being "self directed" they are being directed by you, directed spiritually by you, in counsel not given by the man you supposedly believe is chosen by God to lead the church.

And comparing spirituality and the stock market doesn't make it, or maybe you believe they are of equal importance. I suppose the analogy makes sense if you think God cares as much about your portfolio as he does about your spirituality.

[_CSA]

JAK, café Crema,

The awakening of a person's ability to form new thought and gain new dimensions of thought is in direct opposition of indoctrination. You claim that I show no intellectual freedom in my attempts to test my own belief and theories that caffeine is a drug that impairs a person ability to gain a greater spiritual experience. How am I stifling the freedoms of others or showing narrowness in my thinking when this is not considered the established religious dogma in which you feel I can not pull myself away from?

I have a position that I am testing. I have claimed that I wished the Prophet would focus on clarifying the Word of Wisdom to meet today's issues. Who cares that tobacco is good for your cattle? While I may agree with some who have suggested that a concentrated effort to improve oneself can bring about a greater spirituality. Yes someone who gives up drinking too much sugary drink with the goal of bettering oneself may in fact produce greater spirituality if that was the primary goal. I don't think I have manufactured a conclusion when I have seen firsthand that someone giving up caffeine can gain a greater self perceived level of spirituality.

I try and test my claim in a somewhat scientific fashion and you criticize my efforts. Yes I go into this with my own very biased belief but I am open to test it rather than simply accept it which I think you would applaud rather than find fault with.

As for the word "spirituality", I cannot fully define or describe it other than I know when I am spirituality strengthened and fed. I know if my spirituality has grown or has declined over a period of time and I know how I can improve my spirituality, usually by searching, pondering and praying.

[_Themis]

While I may agree with some who have suggested that a concentrated effort to improve oneself can bring about a greater spirituality. Yes someone who gives up drinking too much sugary drink with the goal of bettering oneself may in fact produce greater spirituality if that was the primary goal.

How are you going to differentiate between those who feel their spirituality/In tune with nature/etc has increased with other things they consider bad with those who consider caffeine bad?

I don't think I have manufactured a conclusion when I have seen firsthand that someone giving up caffeine can gain a greater self perceived level of spirituality.

You have manufactured a conclusion by your own admission of being biased in your observations.

I try and test my claim in a somewhat scientific fashion and you criticize my efforts. Yes I go into this with my own very biased belief but I am open to test it rather than simply accept it which I think you would applaud rather than find fault with.

It is not even somewhat scientific even though you may like to view it that way. You have so many problems, bias, and unfounded assumptions that you will not be able to get anywhere. All that will happen is you will make your so called tests and then think you have proven a conclusion you have already made.

As for the word "spirituality", I cannot fully define or describe it other than I know when I am spirituality strengthened and fed. I know if my spirituality has grown or has declined over a period of time and I know how I can improve my spirituality, usually by searching, pondering and praying.

How can you test in a somewhat scientific manner something you cannot even define?

[_cafe crema]

JAK, café Crema,

The awakening of a person's ability to form new thought and gain new dimensions of thought is in direct opposition of indoctrination. You claim that I show no intellectual freedom in my attempts to test my own belief and theories that caffeine is a drug that impairs a person ability to gain a greater spiritual experience. How am I stifling the freedoms of others or showing narrowness in my thinking when this is not considered the established religious dogma in which you feel I can not pull myself away from?

I never said anything about showing no intellectual freedom or stifling the freedoms of others.

I have a position that I am testing. I have claimed that I wished the Prophet would focus on clarifying the Word of Wisdom to meet today's issues. Who cares that tobacco is good for your cattle? While I may agree with some who have suggested that a concentrated effort to improve oneself can bring about a greater spirituality. Yes someone who gives up drinking too much sugary drink with the goal of bettering oneself may in fact produce greater spirituality if that was the primary goal. I don't think I have manufactured a conclusion when I have seen firsthand that someone giving up caffeine can gain a greater self perceived level of spirituality.

Wishing!? You now claim you wished, you said nothing about "wishing" you said the following:

I for one, think the LDS church is not doing enough in defining and interpreting the Word of Wisdom in terms that could be used in this day and age

I don't think, he is approaching God about what possible changes could be made to the Word of Wisdom

No wishing there you said you think the leadership of the LDS church is not going about things as you THINK they should. Why do you think you have a better understanding of the WOW than those called to lead you church?

I try and test my claim in a somewhat scientific fashion and you criticize my efforts. Yes I go into this with my own very biased belief but I am open to test it rather than simply accept it which I think you would applaud rather than find fault with.

You are not proposing to test your claim in any manner of "scientific fashion". Whats more, to imply even a miniscule amount of adherence to scientific method is a blatant lie on your part. You are setting the whole thing up in order to confirm your beliefs, this is obvious from you added requirements, fasting, prayer, scripture reading, progress tracking and a commitment to follow YOUR interpretation of the WOW. Follow your interpretation over the interpretation given by the leaders of your church. You remember them the 12 or 15 guys in SLC charged with you know leading your church.
If the participants in your pseudo scientific exercise do show an "improved spirituality" (as subjectively judged by themselves, isn't that scientific) there is no way you can say it was the abstinence from caffeine as opposed to any of the other spiritual exercises you have them practicing.

As for the word "spirituality", I cannot fully define or describe it other than I know when I am spirituality strengthened and fed. I know if my spirituality has grown or has declined over a period of time and I know how I can improve my spirituality, usually by searching, pondering and praying.

If you can't even define it how do you expect to "prove" how it works or doesn't work.

[_jon]

I now have commitments from the Stake Presidency, and three members of the High Council, and I am sure I will have quite a few for my sample group by October. The Stake President of my stake will be issuing a letter to be read in the wards of the stake with some preparatory guidelines which members of the Stake should follow prior to our Stake temple day in October. The goal is to get people in the stake to give up caffeinated sodas and other things that have caffeine in them.

The four major highlights of preparing for this Stake Temple day is fasting, prayer, scripture reading and a new commitment to following the Word of Wisdom. He agrees with me that the intake of caffeine is a problem. A guy on the High Council is making some kind of web based survey in which stake members are to record level of commitment and spirituality throughout the two weeks before Stake Temple day and a week after. I will be coming up with relevant questions for the survey.

Yes I am biased in my view on this matter and I hope to soon have some good evidence to support my position.

Has the control group been relieved of their temple recommends?
It stands to reason that if they aren't living it fully then they aren't entitled to a recommend.
If they are living it fully then you have no experiment.

CSA, I'm bumping this because you appear to have 'missed' answering the question...

[_Pollypinks]

As to testing something in a scientific manner, that's not always easy. Over the years I've been able to watch how my body reacts to certain substances, since I have auto immune disorders and bipolar disorder as well. After using something for a period of time, if I find help or relief, then I consider it a personal scientific best. And there are times that gunpowder green does remarkable things for my body, and this is not watered down de-caffeinated herbal tea. This is strong stuff. So were I to go to a bishop now, and be honest about this, were I a participating member, he'd likely deny me a temple recommend based on antiquated dietary advice from a self proclaimed prophet.