But Nobody is Interested!

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_mentalgymnast

Re: But Nobody is Interested!

Post by _mentalgymnast »

consiglieri wrote:...I did not restrict my lessons to the correlated manual pablum...


Well good for you sir! You're one of a kind!

It is amazing that no one else besides you was aware of, or at least volunteered the additional information available in regards to the Book of Mormon translation process. Maybe they were still laughing so hard and spilling their guts out from your hilarious demonstration that they either couldn't think straight or didn't hear your question. Who knows.

by the way, correlated manuals are designed to meet the needs of all members as I'm sure you know. Inquisitive folks like you obviously seek to gain further light and knowledge out of the classroom environment in order to meet your needs. For others, the lessons in the correlated manuals, as they are written, meet their needs and may even be a bit more than they can intellectually handle with ease.

You make it sound like there's something inherently wrong or deficient in the way the manuals are compiled and written. As though they should be written specifically for the "greatest among you".

Regards,
MG
_sock puppet
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Re: But Nobody is Interested!

Post by _sock puppet »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Chap wrote:
A crucial point here is that the ability of the believer to "absorb/accept" doctrinal or historical "ambiguity and messiness" is usually limited to his or her own religion. Do LDS usually display the ability to be tolerant of the Roman Catholic cult of the Virgin Mary, for instance, or of the veneration of many other Christians for the cross? So it is not that the believer is in some way constitutionally more tolerant and broad-minded in general , and that the non-believer is a poor intolerant pedantic kind of guy, - the believer has simply been inoculated against being concerned by the particular brand of the bizarre that his own religion teaches.



I can only speak for myself, but I subscribe to the eleventh article of faith where it says,

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.


In reference to your inoculation statement, yes, some members of the church are inoculated against the harder issues that are difficult to wrap one's mind around and others aren't. But again, I think this also has much to do with the degree of ambiguity and messiness that one is able to successfully deal with. Those educated folks that become dis-affected members or leave the church obviously have a lower threshold for ambiguity and messiness than those educated folks that are able to continue on in the faith.

Regards,
MG

MG, withholding information about a belief that others are learning seems at odds with the 11th Article of Faith. By withholding the 'meat' and only giving the 'milk', the person is prevented from making an informed decision about how, where, or what they may worship. It seems to me that anyone believing in the 11th Article of Faith would feel it a moral imperative to help his fellow man know all the nitty-gritty details of the Mormon faith and theology, so that his fellow man may worship how, where or what in accordance with his or her individual beliefs. Withholding those details is manipulating the information and thus undercutting the notion that each should worship as he believes. The 11th Article of Faith seems to be honoring individual autonomy when it comes to worshiping, but the correlated pablum seems to be stifling that very concept.
_just me
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Re: But Nobody is Interested!

Post by _just me »

mentalgymnast wrote:
consiglieri wrote:...I did not restrict my lessons to the correlated manual pablum...


Well good for you sir! You're one of a kind!

It is amazing that no one else besides you was aware of, or at least volunteered the additional information available in regards to the Book of Mormon translation process. Maybe they were still laughing so hard and spilling their guts out from your hilarious demonstration that they either couldn't think straight or didn't hear your question. Who knows.

by the way, correlated manuals are designed to meet the needs of all members as I'm sure you know. Inquisitive folks like you obviously seek to gain further light and knowledge out of the classroom environment in order to meet your needs. For others, the lessons in the correlated manuals, as they are written, meet their needs and may even be a bit more than they can intellectually handle with ease.

You make it sound like there's something inherently wrong or deficient in the way the manuals are compiled and written. As though they should be written specifically for the "greatest among you".

Regards,
MG


It is good to see you admit that even though the church *intends* for the correlated material in the lesson manuals to meet the needs of *all* members it in fact does not.

Maybe it is a bit ridiculous to have 18 year olds and 95 year olds in the same class. Lessons that are repetetive by design.

Does anyone remember that commercial from years ago where the old lady said "Where's the beef?" That's what some members feel going to church and hearing the same watered down lessons year anfter year after year.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_mentalgymnast

Re: But Nobody is Interested!

Post by _mentalgymnast »

sock puppet wrote:...withholding information about a belief that others are learning seems at odds with the 11th Article of Faith. By withholding the 'meat' and only giving the 'milk', the person is prevented from making an informed decision about how, where, or what they may worship. It seems to me that anyone believing in the 11th Article of Faith would feel it a moral imperative to help his fellow man know all the nitty-gritty details of the Mormon faith and theology, so that his fellow man may worship how, where or what in accordance with his or her individual beliefs. Withholding those details is manipulating the information and thus undercutting the notion that each should worship as he believes. The 11th Article of Faith seems to be honoring individual autonomy when it comes to worshiping, but the correlated pablum seems to be stifling that very concept.


Well, yes and no. The pablum that is being referred to here are the basic principles and teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That core should be at the very center of a person's testimony/faith. So I don't see where the "pablum" stifles worshiping at all. Worshiping consists of attending church and partaking of the sacrament, praying, and participating in the sharing of testimony/belief of Jesus Christ.

That's the core.

I think that as far as helping our fellow man understand the nitty-gritty stuff goes, it ought to be done after a person has had an opportunity to feel the witness of the Holy Ghost testifying of the basic core truths of the gospel. After a person has received a witness of basic gospel truths they are better situated to deal with those aspects of church history and other issues that may potentially serve as trials/opposition to simple faith and testimony. At that point in time a person can then be better situated in making an educated/wiser decision based upon not only the intellect and available information dealing with history and issues, but also have the ability to lean upon and remember the spiritual feelings/impressions and experiences associated with the core/basic teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If a person hasn't been able to experience a connection with the divine through the process of conversion beforehand, the intellectual hoops are much more difficult to jump through.

I do think that before a new convert is baptized they should receive factual information and have an opportunity to discuss with knowledgeable individuals any questions or concerns that they may have. A simple way to do this would be to have them simply type in the word "Mormon" in the google search engine and spend some time looking at information available on their own. At that point I would then refer the individuals to sites like Jeff Lindsay's or FAIR to gain alternate perspectives and apoligetic information to get a balanced perspective. I think it would be well at that point, if there are still some troublesome issues to be discussed/explored, to have individuals who are called within each stake to act as a "sounding board" and also "expert" of sorts to be a resource person that can be talked to about anything and everything. I think there are more and more individuals who could receive and successfully accept and carry out this calling within many stakes. This would then provide an opportunity to go through a process of inoculation BEFORE baptism.

Better to have someone put things on hold before baptism, if necessary, rather than leaving the church with feelings of having been betrayed or hood winked afterwords.

Regards,
MG
_moksha
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Re: But Nobody is Interested!

Post by _moksha »

Yahoo Bot, is there any way that Church attorneys could write up a fuller hsitory in the form of acrostics so that we could say, "the information is out there if you choose to look for it"?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_sock puppet
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Re: But Nobody is Interested!

Post by _sock puppet »

mentalgymnast wrote:
consiglieri wrote:...I did not restrict my lessons to the correlated manual pablum...


Well good for you sir! You're one of a kind!

It is amazing that no one else besides you was aware of, or at least volunteered the additional information available in regards to the Book of Mormon translation process. Maybe they were still laughing so hard and spilling their guts out from your hilarious demonstration that they either couldn't think straight or didn't hear your question. Who knows.

by the way, correlated manuals are designed to meet the needs of all members as I'm sure you know. Inquisitive folks like you obviously seek to gain further light and knowledge out of the classroom environment in order to meet your needs. For others, the lessons in the correlated manuals, as they are written, meet their needs and may even be a bit more than they can intellectually handle with ease.

You make it sound like there's something inherently wrong or deficient in the way the manuals are compiled and written. As though they should be written specifically for the "greatest among you".

Regards,
MG

Are you saying that the correlated manuals are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator?

Why would a religion that teaches that there are multiple grades of heaven, class stratifications, etc. do that?
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