Caffeine is bad for you spiritually

[_madeleine]

This obsession over caffeine is more of distraction than caffeine ever could be to my spiritual well being.

CSA: is it your belief the Holy Ghost is scared off by caffeine? Like a vampire with garlic?

...and, have you ever wondered if correlation = causation?

[_cafe crema]

You have placed yourself above your Prophet through out this thread. You've said you know how to follow the Word of Wisdom more precisely, and you have judged your Prophet and found him lacking, he doesn't do the work necessary to guide the church properly. In your words he doesn't communicate with God on this issue nor do enough for the members of the church in regards to the Word of Wisdom. You on the other hand have the answers that the prophet is, unaware of or, too lazy to ask God about. You talk about the things in the WOW that are overlooked, but caffeine is not mentioned so you are going above and beyond the Prophet and the WOW. I can understand why you would do this seeing how you regard him as ineffectual and negligent as shown in your words below.

While I may be of the opinion that the Prophet could and should provide greater clarity in the Word of Wisdom, I am smart enough to realize that this is my own pet peeve which God or the Prophet will deal with on their own time. I have developed the opinion about caffeine over a long period of time throughout my service in the LDS church. When acting as Boy Scout leader I have seen a group of young scouts at camp keeping everyone up all night because a few of them brought caffeinated energy drinks. Later I see these same boys end up in various despicable circumstances as they approach adulthood. I have seen men I have been close with and who I have managed in working conditions so dependent upon caffeine to function and in my opinion not function very well. And those who choose to drink water over soda and those who seem to follow the Word of Wisdom more correctly, also are the ones who actually says a silent prayer over their meals when we have gone to lunch. These things remind me of the promises made in the Word of Wisdom and question what else besides caffeine might be avoided and what things can be added to help someone not only feel more spiritual but act more spiritual.

And prideful enough to act as though you have the authority and understanding to take matters into your own hands. So the Prophets and God will one day catch up with you. I will be watching for pronouncements from you church showing that your Prophets and God have finally gotten around to addressing what you already know. Who knows maybe at the next GC we'll see some action from the sluggards.
It appears with this post that your arguments are devolving into histrionics, or perhaps you suffer from the vapors.

[_cafe crema]

This obsession over caffeine is more of distraction than caffeine ever could be to my spiritual well being.

CSA: is it your belief the Holy Ghost is scared off by caffeine? Like a vampire with garlic?

...and, have you ever wondered if correlation = causation?

Well I've heard the Holy Ghost is chased away by lots of things, loud laughter, contention, irreverent children and I would assume alcohol, smoke, shoulders and maybe even pronoun usage. A rather timid soul.

[_JAK]

This obsession over caffeine is more of distraction than caffeine ever could be to my spiritual well being.

CSA: is it your belief the Holy Ghost is scared off by caffeine? Like a vampire with garlic?

...and, have you ever wondered if correlation = causation?

madeleine,

The implication of your second sentence is that you equate, in some way, “a vampire” with “the Holy Ghost.” i.e. As a vampire is “scared off” by “garlic,” “the Holy Ghost” is scared off by caffeine.” Now I understanding that you are not advocating this, the comparison for CSA appears to be that kind of comparison.

Are you as skeptical of “a vampire” as you are of “the Holy Ghost”? If not, why not?

No credible evidence has been established for “Holy Ghost” despite that many believe a wide variety of mythologies about “Holy Ghost.” As it is organized, superstition becomes religion expressed with certainty, doctrine, and dogma absent any genuine, consensus on the various claims. Various religions make individual claims regarding spirit or spirits. Christianity is no exception.

Yet, the many various Christian organizations do not perceive “Holy Spirit” in the same way. For example, few argue that caffeine plays a major/minor role in “spiritual well being.” CSA has argued this absent any genuine evidence for the claim. You rightly challenge this notion.

My challenge is to the notion that “Holy Ghost” is anything more than an extension of mythology which is nearly always vague with regard to claims made. When such claims become specific, they are at odds with other claims made by other religious dogmas making claims.

JAK

[_JAK]

This obsession over caffeine is more of distraction than caffeine ever could be to my spiritual well being.

CSA: is it your belief the Holy Ghost is scared off by caffeine? Like a vampire with garlic?

...and, have you ever wondered if correlation = causation?

Well I've heard the Holy Ghost is chased away by lots of things, loud laughter, contention, irreverent children and I would assume alcohol, smoke, shoulders and maybe even pronoun usage. A rather timid soul.

café crema,

You amplify my point to madeleine.

When you state: “Well I’ve heard…” you are making a larger point than you may realize. People prone to religion or to be religious have “heard” a wide variety of things. If they have “heard” widely, they know full well that a wide variety of multiple claims have been made. Of course, if they have been indoctrinated in one religious mythology only, have never intellectually entertained the serious claims of other religious mythologies, they tend to believe without question what they have “heard.”

Constant repetition from cradle up tends to make for irrational acceptance/belief in what an individual has “heard.”

JAK

[_madeleine]

This obsession over caffeine is more of distraction than caffeine ever could be to my spiritual well being.

CSA: is it your belief the Holy Ghost is scared off by caffeine? Like a vampire with garlic?

...and, have you ever wondered if correlation = causation?

madeleine,

The implication of your second sentence is that you equate, in some way, “a vampire” with “the Holy Ghost.” i.e. As a vampire is “scared off” by “garlic,” “the Holy Ghost” is scared off by caffeine.” Now I understanding that you are not advocating this, the comparison for CSA appears to be that kind of comparison.

Are you as skeptical of “a vampire” as you are of “the Holy Ghost”? If not, why not?

No credible evidence has been established for “Holy Ghost” despite that many believe a wide variety of mythologies about “Holy Ghost.” As it is organized, superstition becomes religion expressed with certainty, doctrine, and dogma absent any genuine, consensus on the various claims. Various religions make individual claims regarding spirit or spirits. Christianity is no exception.

Yet, the many various Christian organizations do not perceive “Holy Spirit” in the same way. For example, few argue that caffeine plays a major/minor role in “spiritual well being.” CSA has argued this absent any genuine evidence for the claim. You rightly challenge this notion.

My challenge is to the notion that “Holy Ghost” is anything more than an extension of mythology which is nearly always vague with regard to claims made. When such claims become specific, they are at odds with other claims made by other religious dogmas making claims.

JAK

Hello Jak,

Yes, I knew this when I wrote it....I do have a long a sordid atheist background, and I know there are a lot of atheists/agnostics here.

My own experiences are such that I have never met a vampire or found evidence for them. I'm not speaking of empirical evidence, but experiential. I do have this experiential evidence for my own life regarding God.

I am not poking fun at CSA, just trying to figure out what he believes, because what people and cultures believe, interest me.

For myself, I don't believe God is absent from anywhere. It is antithetical to Christianity from my view. Jesus Christ saving us in our sins, not waiting for us to perfect ourselves, and then showing up to save us.....from what? If we have already saved ourselves? This is central to Christianity.

So a belief of God being absent, is intriguing. Especially when that absence is caused by something so trivial as drinking a cola.

[_moksha]

Here is the formula: One Irish Coffee is more morally reprehensible than three fingers of tequila because of the multiplicative process.

[_Quasimodo]

Here is the formula: One Irish Coffee is more morally reprehensible than three fingers of tequila because of the multiplicative process.

But, an Irish coffee is sooo satisfying. Morals be damned. Give me the good stuff.

[_JAK]

Post Reference

madeleine,

I rather suspected that you were not making any claims for “vampire.”

Experience is widely varied. Individuals brings to any exposure their own perceptions.

Recently, I attended a wedding with about 300 guests. It was a dramatic affair from beginning to a last dance at 2 A.M. Of course no one there was everywhere or with everyone even part of the time, let alone all of the time. Hence, all people had a different exposure, a different experience at this single wedding. Were we to have a verbal or written account of this wedding, no two people present would see it precisely the same way. So, what’s the reality of the event, experience, encounter? We would likely all agree where the wedding was held, where the reception was held, etc. The reception was done by The Ritz Carlton which served the drinks, hors d'œuvres, and dinner. The Ritz employees had a series of people who had quite a different experience at the reception than did the guests (or the bride and groom). Yet, all the stories which might be told (short of merely asserted opinion) might be supported by observed evidence of fact. There were no vampires – (no evidence to support such an assertion).

Even in context, I do not know what your meaning is in this statement:

“For myself, I don't believe God is absent from anywhere. It is antithetical to Christianity from my view. Jesus Christ saving us in our sins, not waiting for us to perfect ourselves, and then showing up to save us.....from what? If we have already saved ourselves? This is central to Christianity.” madeleine

The first sentence is an assertion, a claim: God. In that claim, it is incumbent on you to establish your claim – not merely assert it. (Of course if you’re talking to people all of whom accept absent question or intellectual skepticism that claim, there are nodding heads.) However, just as you would question a claim of “vampire,” and would likely asked for evidence which could be observed, tested, and examined by everyone, one should also ask for evidence regarding any claim: God or ”Holy Ghost.”

Religion is largely about accepting assertions for which no genuine evidence has been produced. As religion evolved from unstructured superstition, religion took on structure. The structuring has detailed claims, ceremonies, elaborate constructions (cathedrals, etc.), and symbolic paraphernalia. These developed over long periods of time from those early superstitions which may have had few such trappings. It’s difficult to argue with the imposing cathedrals standing today as historical edifices to beliefs. Such beliefs are in opposition to other beliefs which have other symbols and ceremonies.

None of this is supportive of any singular of the wide variety of claims, doctrines, and dogmas which were the forerunners of symbols. As you likely are aware, there are more than a thousand groups (large and small) which declare themselves a religion, unique and different in some way from all the others. Each tends to assert, and the members of the group tend to believe that they have the correct understanding or reality of the claims to which they subscribe. Families of Christian Denominations in the North America

This should make us most skeptical of God claims made by religion.

“So a belief of God being absent, is intriguing. Especially when that absence is caused by something so trivial as drinking a cola.” madeleine

I did not think that was CSA’s argument. “Caffeine is bad for you spiritually.” CSA

Just what does that mean? “Bad” is relative (as is good). Being hit by a truck is “bad for you…” Never mind “spiritually.”
CSA makes no differentiation regarding quantity of caffeine or the source. Chocolate has caffeine in it. Is chocolate “…bad for you spiritually”? Suppose we contrast one chocolate with 50 chocolates – “bad” is relative. Then there is the issue of sugar. Does sugar affect one “spiritually” according to CSA?

Decaffeinated coffee has maybe one or two percent the caffeine that regular coffee has. Is there a difference between these? Is there a difference between one cup of regular coffee a week and eight cups of coffee a day? CSA makes no distinction in the absolute claim.

What is “spiritually”? That is not clarified. Therefore, a claim such as we have here is meaningless. Until we have some quantification and definition of “spirit,” we have no case, only an assertion. It’s a pointless argument.

JAK

[_madeleine]

Jak,

I don't have the need or desire to prove my own experience, or, to negate the experience of anyone else.

I can question, with skepticism as well, the experience of others. Others can and do the same for mine. I don't view experience as supporting an ideology, or, experience itself as ideological. Experience is how we live reality. Unless a person has nihilist leanings, I wouldn't know how else we would verify what is real and what is not.

I can't see how one disconnects themselves from experience, as to me that is disconnecting oneself from reality.

However, this doesn't imply that reason is disregarded. In fact no, it is reason that allows us to look at our experiences as verification of reality.

To separate reason from experience, or experience from reason, is not a human approach to life. As this is exactly what everyone is doing almost every moment of their lives (while awake of course).

So while my experience verifies reality, which has for me a name, Jesus Christ, I fully recognize that until another person encounters this Reality, they are not looking at experience, but rather testimony.

This in and of itself is not unreasonable, as sharing our experiences with others is a human experience. You can view with skepticism, which is a reasonable response, but your response does not negate my experience.

Hope that explains my view clearly. :)