Does it take more faith to stay, or to go?

[_Morley]

Not everyone's experience is the same. When I left the Church, most of my TBM friends and family stood by me. I wasn't ostracized in the Utah Mormon community where I lived and worked. It probably was a factor in the dissolution of my marriage.

[_KevinSim]

More faith to stay or go? To stay.

To go simply takes reason and logic, the antithesis of faith.

Agreed. It also takes more courage to leave - more courage than I have at present. Staying is the easy road.

Buffalo, it may be true for you that staying is the easy road; it is not true for me. Over the years since 1999 I've done a lot of thinking about what I would do if I left the LDS Church, and I've got the whole escape route planned out. People talk a lot about the close friends they would lose if they left the Church, and to be honest there are a lot of people who are dear to me that would very possibly disown me if I abandoned the faith, but I keep thinking there's bound to be an even larger group of people I would probably become friends with, if I took the course I've thought of taking.

In the long run, though, there's only one friend that really matters, and that is he that was my best friend when I was growing up, my most trusted companion, and the only person that I was really close to before I met and married my wife, and that friend is God. Ultimately, I stay in the LDS Church because God has not told me to get out of it yet.

That doesn't help me with the doubts that plague me. Sometimes it gets really interesting living with those doubts. But it could be a lot worse. I am pretty firmly convinced that the most difficult road of all would be coming to grips with my conscience in the event that there's no God here at all.

"sock puppet" said that to "go simply takes reason and logic, the antithesis of faith." Why would "reason and logic" lead someone to leave the LDS Church?

[_thews]

Agreed. It also takes more courage to leave - more courage than I have at present. Staying is the easy road.

Agree

Buffalo, it may be true for you that staying is the easy road; it is not true for me. Over the years since 1999 I've done a lot of thinking about what I would do if I left the LDS Church, and I've got the whole escape route planned out. People talk a lot about the close friends they would lose if they left the Church, and to be honest there are a lot of people who are dear to me that would very possibly disown me if I abandoned the faith, but I keep thinking there's bound to be an even larger group of people I would probably become friends with, if I took the course I've thought of taking.

Agree

In the long run, though, there's only one friend that really matters, and that is he that was my best friend when I was growing up, my most trusted companion, and the only person that I was really close to before I met and married my wife, and that friend is God. Ultimately, I stay in the LDS Church because God has not told me to get out of it yet.

Disagree. God didn't tell you Jack Shat. God doesn't speak to people. What God wants, God gets. Unless you have spoken words running through your head from God, which would make you certifiably insane, God didn't tell you anything... you chose what you chose based on what God gave you... the gift of reason. You are the one making these decisions and living your life; it's ll about you, and it's all based on the truth.

That doesn't help me with the doubts that plague me. Sometimes it gets really interesting living with those doubts. But it could be a lot worse. I am pretty firmly convinced that the most difficult road of all would be coming to grips with my conscience in the event that there's no God here at all.

What is interesting about living a lie you know is false? Do you find favor in the crowd that applauds you for maintaining faith in what you know is false? Does the community that applauds you for maintaining ignorance make you feel better living a lie? Is this intellectually honest?

"sock puppet" said that to "go simply takes reason and logic, the antithesis of faith." Why would "reason and logic" lead someone to leave the LDS Church?

Ok I'll bite. answer these questions honestly:

1) Do you believe in Joseph Smith's seer stones bringing "Christian" doctrine?
2) Do you believe that an incorrect translation from the pagan book of the dead (Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham) is Christian?
3) Do you believe polygamy is an everlasting covenant?
4) Do you believe Joseph Smith claimed to translate a known hoax in the Kinderhook plates because God was guiding him?
5) Do you think God would allow Joseph Smith to die before the JST "translation" of the Bible and the supposed book of Joseph was translated if it really was God's will?

If you answered no to any of the above questions, you are living an absolute lie. Do you actually think some gatekeeper is going to ask you for a secret handshake because you were one of the chosen ones to buy into Joseph Smith's story? Do you actually believe "sealings" are why Joseph Smith went after Sarah Ann Whitney (letter as a fact to include intent)? Wake up... Joseph Smith was a fraud and he was just a man... a bad man. What evidence do you have to prove otherwise?

[_Pollypinks]

This doesn't happen in protestantism. You stop going to a church but you can remain best buds with all your friends there. Mormons are very judgmental when it comes to who meets their standards of friendship, and I for one don't need that crap in my life.

[_KevinSim]

God didn't tell you Jack Shat. God doesn't speak to people.

"thews", why do you think "God doesn't speak to people"?

What God wants, God gets. Unless you have spoken words running through your head from God, which would make you certifiably insane, God didn't tell you anything... you chose what you chose based on what God gave you... the gift of reason. You are the one making these decisions and living your life; it's ll about you, and it's all based on the truth.

God did indeed give me "the gift of reason." I decided quite a long time ago that I wanted to know the truth about God, so that I could live my life according to His will. I looked at all the different competing ideas about what God's will actually was, and used my "gift of reason" to conclude that if someone like me didn't have input directly from God to use as a certain foundation for my own personal theology, then there was no way I could be certain about what the will of God actually was in my life. I decided to have faith in a deity that wanted me to know His will, and therefore asked God a question, ready to base the whole rest of my life on the kernel of truth He provided as an answer to that question. I got my answer, and have used it as the foundation of which I spoke. If this is not a reasonable approach, I'd appreciate it if you could point out where in my reasoning laid out above I made a rational error.

What is interesting about living a lie you know is false?

Why do you think I'm "living a lie"? If I knew that my faith in the LDS Church was based on a lie, and that God was more likely to want me in some other faith than the LDS faith, I'd leave the LDS Church for that other faith.

Is this intellectually honest?

I've tried as hard as I can to consider all the relevant issues, and after all the dust settled the LDS method of finding out the will of God in my life ended up making more sense than all the other methods other people offered or that I could think of. So, yes, my faith is intellectually honest.

Do you believe in Joseph Smith's seer stones bringing "Christian" doctrine?

I believe that Jesus Christ can provide His prophets with His doctrine any way He chooses.

Do you believe that an incorrect translation from the pagan book of the dead (Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham) is Christian?

A lot of people have said a lot of things about the Book of Abraham. If the final consensus was that it is "an incorrect translation from the pagan book of the dead," I wasn't aware of it. My impression of the debate is that it is still too mired in controversy to have a serious resolution yet.

But yes, I do currently believe that Jesus endorses the Book of Abraham as scripture.

Do you believe polygamy is an everlasting covenant?

Yes I do.

Do you believe Joseph Smith claimed to translate a known hoax in the Kinderhook plates because God was guiding him?

I have been recently kind of leaning toward the opinion that Joseph Smith may have made a mistake regarding the Kinderhook plates, that he was fooled into thinking they were of ancient origin. But some people have recently said some things about the Kinderhook incident that I haven't listened to fully, and I really need to do that before I form a solid opinion on the matter.

I have for some time veered away from the philosophy that everything Joseph Smith said has to be considered 100% true. Instead I affirm simply that God chose Joseph Smith as His spokesman to the world, and that God wants me to learn about Him via what Joseph Smith and his successors (as presidents of the LDS Church) taught. That doesn't mean that everything they said was always completely accurate; rather it means that God had some foreknowledge of what they would say, and realized that those men would lead the Latter-day Saints more toward what God wanted to teach them, than any other men would.

Do you think God would allow Joseph Smith to die before the JST "translation" of the Bible and the supposed book of Joseph was translated if it really was God's will?

If what was God's will?

If you answered no to any of the above questions, you are living an absolute lie.

"thews", as you can see I didn't answer "no to any of the above questions," so I guess I'm not "living an absolute lie."

Wake up... Joseph Smith was a fraud and he was just a man... a bad man. What evidence do you have to prove otherwise?

For the record I don't have any evidence that proves otherwise. Why is my inability to prove that Joseph Smith wasn't a fraud or "a bad man" relevant? I don't have any evidence that proves Abraham Lincoln wasn't a fraud or a bad man. Does that mean Lincoln was a fraud and "a bad man"?

[_KevinSim]

This doesn't happen in protestantism. You stop going to a church but you can remain best buds with all your friends there. Mormons are very judgmental when it comes to who meets their standards of friendship, and I for one don't need that s*** in my life.

Pollypinks, is stopping "going to a church" the issue? It's possible that some Latter-day Saints might be judgmental of people who simply "stop going to" church, but most of the Latter-day Saints I've known in my life have always been extremely friendly with people who "stop going to" church. My father set the example for me; he was a great home teacher to inactive members, and I have tried over my life to do the same.

The relevant issue is whether people "stop going to a church" because they've become critical of the doctrine taught there. Maybe there are some Protestants who are supportive of people who disagree with their doctrine, but there are some Mormons who are too, me for example. I had a friend I grew up with who came to the conclusion that the LDS Church was false and left the Church.

I still consider him my friend, though I'm not sure he reciprocates. About a year ago he located my e-mail address, and we started an electronic correspondence. Most of the time he wanted to talk about theology, and most of that time he wanted to criticize LDS theology. So I returned the favor, and started criticizing his theology. But apparently criticizing his views constituted abuse, and therefore he's no longer speaking to me. So maybe Protestants (if he considers himself a Protestant) aren't so tolerant (of criticism) after all!

[_sock puppet]

"sock puppet" said that to "go simply takes reason and logic, the antithesis of faith." Why would "reason and logic" lead someone to leave the LDS Church?

Thews did a good job taking a whack at this. I think if you see DrW's post to you in another thread, your post about what's a NOM, you will see he thinks you'll blossom to full apostate if you stick around MDB.

The problem for Mormonism, as compared to other religions, is how it came about in a time when documented events had become more prevalent and record preservation more important. That is, there is a rich historical record available about the founding of Mormonism. It is not pretty. Boyd K Packer at last April's general conference warned listeners to "let it alone"--he was referring to early Mormon history. If you want to preserve what testimony you yet have (which I understand is more that you use the Mormon Church and its teachings as a way to learn more about god, rather than you accepting everything issued forth from the Mormon Church as god-has-spoken), then you will do as BKP admonished and let it alone.

If you start digging, you'll find major discrepancies between the historical record and the correlated message that the Mormon Church issues from its headquarters in SLC. Here's just the tip of the iceberg, a sample if you will.

JSJr used 'magic rocks' to earn money by promising landowners he could locate buried treasure on their ground, but when the spot dug up had no treasure, JSJr explained evil spirits were moving the treasure underground as the digging took place, to evade the diggers reaching the treasure. The landowner paid JSJr for his services, but got no treasure. This was commonly called 'glass looking for hire' in New York state in that era, and was illegal. JSJr was brought up on charges of this in 1826 and what we'd today call a 'preliminary hearing' held where witnesses for the prosecution testified. Later, JSJr would put one of these magic rocks in the crown of an upside down hat, put his face into it, and read English phrases that appeared above the rock--read them out loud so that his scribes could write down these phrases to be part of the Book of Mormon.

Quite the provenance for sacred scripture to be delivered to an entire, and the last, dispensation of peoples--through a charlatan to seek payment from naïve landowners, using his same magic rocks.

[_Pollypinks]

Oh come on now! White washing what I said about the way people are treated when they leave the church. Or, let's take it a step further. How they are thought of. I remember all the prayers said while I was in the Relief Society pres. for women who'd left the faith, how we agonized over their salvation, but simply couldn't be close friends with them any more because they'd drag us down emotionally. Now, fundamentalist christians might fit this mold more than reformed church members do. They get really testy about this stuff. I know. I've lived it. I have a close personal friend who for religious reasons became uncomfortable attending the presbyterian church we were both attending at the time, but she loved her job on the pastoral care committee, of which I also belonged. So she showed up for her job, did her letter writing and other things, and went to another church! Happens all the time in many churches. She's blissfully happy at a methodist church now, being more Westleying than Calvinistic, and I'm more happy at a smaller presbyterian church that I can walk to, but still has a superb choir, which is a joy to belong to. We have an LDS fellow who sings in our choir and writes music for us because the people in his ward would never let him perform what he writes, but, he still goes to the LDS church on Sunday as well. He's not an apostate. He just wants to do his musical thing, and let's be honest, you can't do that in a Mormon church. It's just too damn dull, dreary, funeral like, and ill performed. Not one soul at my church has ever questioned his being there. Ever. And this crap about a bishop calling the shots on the music performed at one's funeral blows my mind. Literally. Tried to do "The Old Rugged Cross" for my grand mother, but the bishop nixed it. So, at the grave site, at the very end, my husband stood up and said, "Gramma wanted to hear "The Old Rugged Cross" so I'm going to sing it right now. And then he did.

[_KevinSim]

Oh come on now! White washing what I said about the way people are treated when they leave the church.

I looked up the definition of whitewash at "http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whitewash"; it says, "5. to cover up or gloss over the faults or errors of; absolve from blame." Before it applies to what I said, we need to establish that there are "faults or errors" to be whitewashed.

Now, fundamentalist christians might fit this mold more than reformed church members do. They get really testy about this stuff.

Perhaps that was what I was thinking of. I'm glad to hear there may be Protestant churches where people get along so well with people who think they're in error!

Tried to do "The Old Rugged Cross" for my grand mother, but the bishop nixed it. So, at the grave site, at the very end, my husband stood up and said, "Gramma wanted to hear "The Old Rugged Cross" so I'm going to sing it right now. And then he did.

I'm glad your grandmother had the song sung she wanted.

[_KevinSim]

Later, JSJr would put one of these magic rocks in the crown of an upside down hat, put his face into it, and read English phrases that appeared above the rock--read them out loud so that his scribes could write down these phrases to be part of the Book of Mormon.

Quite the provenance for sacred scripture to be delivered to an entire, and the last, dispensation of peoples--through a charlatan to seek payment from naïve landowners, using his same magic rocks.

I had actually already heard about this, from an LDS Institute teacher, with the phrase magic rock replaced with seerstone. So the "magic rocks" didn't work to find treasure, but they did work to translate the Book of Mormon; so what? As I told "thews," Jesus can use any means He wants to get His scriptures transmitted.