Believers instinctively know that Jesus was full of it

[_Uncle Dale]

...making excuses for why you're exempt...

That does not seem to be the case -- so far as I can tell.

During the 1980s I essentially abandoned all possessions, save for
my clothing and whatever sustenance I could secure on a
day-to-day basis. I lived that way for about three years before
moving on to a volunteer teaching job in China, with very little
accumulation of possessions for years thereafter.

I was not attached to that renunciation -- nor do I feel attached to
the home, books, furniture, etc. that my wife and I have accumulated
since those days. I was happy without all the "stuff" and I'm fairly
certain that I could remain happy now, with or without it.

There was a show about "hoarders" on TV recently. The fellow
there featured was given an opportunity to visit a local junk yard,
and thus add to his already overflowing collection of odds and ends.
He gleefully accepted, and then fell into utter despair when his
children forbid the new addition of junk, and began to clean up his
home, throwing out vast amounts of the stuff.

That's an extreme case, but it demonstrates that attachments to
material possessions can bring on even more human suffering.

UD

[_Buffalo]

...making excuses for why you're exempt...

That does not seem to be the case -- so far as I can tell.

During the 1980s I essentially abandoned all possessions, save for
my clothing and whatever sustenance I could secure on a
day-to-day basis. I lived that way for about three years before
moving on to a volunteer teaching job in China, with very little
accumulation of possessions for years thereafter.

I was not attached to that renunciation -- nor do I feel attached to
the home, books, furniture, etc. that my wife and I have accumulated
since those days. I was happy without all the "stuff" and I'm fairly
certain that I could remain happy now, with or without it.

There was a show about "hoarders" on TV recently. The fellow
there featured was given an opportunity to visit a local junk yard,
and thus add to his already overflowing collection of odds and ends.
He gleefully accepted, and then fell into utter despair when his
children forbid the new addition of junk, and began to clean up his
home, throwing out vast amounts of the stuff.

That's an extreme case, but it demonstrates that attachments to
material possessions can bring on even more human suffering.

UD

I'll hand it to you, you walk the walk. Schooled!

[_Uncle Dale]

...personally live these words of Jesus?
...

As I mentioned previously, the first logical step would be
to sort out the actual, original teachings of Jesus, from
what he is purported to have counseled.

If that could be accomplished -- and I'm not sure that any
of us are able to do that now -- then the "literal" living out
of Jesus' doctrines would probably result in something like the
lifestyle of the early Egyptian gnostics.

I think the goal could be largely accomplished, but it would
involve communal living and significant detachment from
the activities of the "outside world."

UD

[_Uncle Dale]

...walk the walk...

I admit to still being attached to cat licks, the smell of fresh flowers
and unsolicited compliments from on-line discussion participants.

Siddhartha forgive me...

UD

[_Some Schmo]

There was a show about "hoarders" on TV recently. The fellow
there featured was given an opportunity to visit a local junk yard,
and thus add to his already overflowing collection of odds and ends.
He gleefully accepted, and then fell into utter despair when his
children forbid the new addition of junk, and began to clean up his
home, throwing out vast amounts of the stuff.

Hoarders are to stuff what apologists are to arguments. Sure, that crap is broken and none of it works any more (assuming they ever did), but they never know when they'll need them, so they keep them around.

Hence, we end up with a situation where both a hoarder's house and an apologist's mind are filled with useless crap they don't want to part with, and they'll actually scream with agony when you try to take it all away.

[_Uncle Dale]

...they'll actually scream with agony when you try to take it all away.

And one day they'll be on their death-beds, with only a pillow and sheet
under their control -- and only the morphine drip to assuage their agony.

I see them in their childhood; in their obnoxious glory years; and at
the end of their mis-lived lives --- all in one glimpse --- Perhaps that is
why I can generally bypass loving them or hating them very much.

Uncle Dale (an apologist of sorts myself)

[_Jason Bourne]

Hoops, I would actually enjoy reading a real response from you, as a literalist, on this topic. How do you personally live these words of Jesus? Do you understand and interpret them literally? Why or why not?

If you have the time, of course.

Me too.

But Hoops typically does not give any substance. Just small quips like the ones above. Too bad.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
does not give any substance.
...

One of the problems of literalism is that the English-translated
words originating some 2000 years ago must be applied to
conditions and situations, no matter the time and place in history.

Were I a Jew living back then, a Roman officer might legally
have compelled me to carry an object a mile, or to lend him
my coat, or some such oddity that seems absurd to us now.
So, it is not always easy for us to apply ancient doctrine.

But -- beyond that -- I have the strong feeling that some of
Jesus' otherwise explicable counsel was meant to shock and
disarm his hearers; and was not meant as instruction for
daily living.

Say that he encountered me, on some dusty Palestinian road --
and I was a Pharisee, proud of my great efforts at obeying all
the laws of Moses. Might Jesus not have "cut the ground" from
underneath my self-righteous feet, by demanding that I obey
that law PERFECTLY -- that I myself be a perfect entity?

The effect of such a rabbinical demand probably would not have
put me on the path to self-perfection -- but it might indeed have
brought me to a sudden, existential halt -- to a broken spirit
and a contrite heart --- in a word, to personal repentance.

In a "kingdom not of this world," we cannot expect to live by
every word that proceeds from out of the mouth of God. The
best we can hope for is bread and a side-order of forgiveness.

Mormons seeking eternal progression, beware.

UD

[_hatersinmyward]

Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

It's a metaphor. Meaning to forsake your pride.

Matt 6: 1-4
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

If the churches followed this one, you'd never see a press release about another charitable act again. But the fact is, we all give in order to feel good about ourselves and look good in front of our peers. And there's nothing wrong with that - it motivates people to do good./quote]

Top level of Buddhism: You must be in the position to be worshiped but must not want to be worshiped. Everything is wrong with that Buffalo.

Matthew 21:21-22
21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive

You supposedly only need a mustard seed's worth of faith to move mountains, but no one tries it because even when they think they believe in miracles, they know deep down that God won't be moving any mountains for anyone. That sort of thing doesn't happen.

Just go running back home with your tail between your legs.

Matt. 8:21-22
21Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
22But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Kind of a dick move, Jesus. The LDS church treats its missionaries in similar dickish fashion, but otherwise this is ignored.

Out of context?

(Matt: 23:9)
9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

I knew one kind of crazy Jesus freak who did this, but pretty much everyone ignores this one.

Daddy's money makes his kids worthless unless the kids use it for charity... I saw that one.

(Luke 14:26)
26"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

However you take this one, it's a malignant doctrine. The vast majority ignore it.

Haters aren't getting in.

(Mark 10:5-9)
5But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.'
7'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh.
9What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

The Catholics are the only ones who take this seriously - protestant and Mormons like to pretend Jesus didn't mean it should apply to them. Because in the real world, sometimes the only answer is divorce.

See Luke 14:33

[_moksha]

Matthew 6:14 Message Bible
The World Is Not a Stage
1 "Be especially careful when you are trying to be good so that you don't make a performance out of it. It might be good theater, but the God who made you won't be applauding. 2-4"When you do something for someone else, don't call attention to yourself. You've seen them in action, I'm sure—'playactors' I call them— treating prayer meeting and street corner alike as a stage, acting compassionate as long as someone is watching, playing to the crowds. They get applause, true, but that's all they get. When you help someone out, don't think about how it looks. Just do it—quietly and unobtrusively. That is the way your God, who conceived you in love, working behind the scenes, helps you out.

Sounds much better with its added clarity than what Buffalo quoted.

Figure the Cost
25-27One day when large groups of people were walking along with him, Jesus turned and told them, "Anyone who comes to me but refuses to let go of father, mother, spouse, children, brothers, sisters—yes, even one's own self!—can't be my disciple. Anyone who won't shoulder his own cross and follow behind me can't be my disciple.

Might as well have said circle the wagons with your Buick Skymasters. Definitely sounds like one of those items added after the fact.