Simon, a new perspective

[_schreech]

Nope they're symbolic elements necessary for the actual steps to Godhood.

Got it, so you dress up "cosplay" style, pretend to be adam in the garden of eden (in fact, isn't there a part where god actually calls you adam?), pretend to get kicked out of the garden of eden and then, as adam, pretend to talk to various other characters from the Bible while learning the "real" steps to becoming a god...Thanks for clearing that up!

[_Simon Belmont]

Got it, so you dress up "cosplay" style, pretend to be adam in the garden of eden (in fact, isn't there a part where god actually calls you adam?), pretend to get kicked out of the garden of eden and then, as adam, pretend to talk to various other characters from the Bible while learning the "real" steps to becoming a god...Thanks for clearing that up!

It's called ritual. Poetry in motion. If you don't understand its importance then I can't help you. You should read more Campbell.

[_schreech]

It's called ritual. Poetry in motion. If you don't understand its importance then I can't help you. You should read more Campbell.

Its also called pretend and "cosplay". If you don't understand its importance then i can't help you. You should read more write ups on comicon.

[_Yoda]

You still haven't explained how that is harmful.

Are you asking:

1) Why is it harmful to teach people that they need to go to the Mormon temple, have someone reach under your clothes and smear oil on different parts of your body (without informing them first) THEN dress up in "cosplay" outfits, participate in a secret pseudo-masonic ritual/pantomime (that they have never seen or been allowed to discuss because its too "sacred") in which they pretend to be different people in a room full of people pretending to be different people while making covenants (that they were not told about beforehand) in order to become a god and in order to be with their family forever in the highest kingdom of elohim?

Or are you asking:

2)Why is it harmful to wear symbolic reminders of your religion?

If 1), then I can point you to dozens (if not hundreds) of people's experiences with the LDS temple that led them to believe that the LDS church, that they had been taught and believed to be true, is a sham/cultish/disturbing/uninspired/evil/make-believe/a masonic-ripoff/etc...including my own...

I was asking #2. ;-)

For the record, Screech, I am sorry that your experience with the temple was so emotionally painful for you. I had a very good friend in college who had gotten married the year before. She actually walked me through everything before I went through the temple, so I knew exactly what to expect. I will always be grateful to her for that. I did the same thing with my daughter. I am glad that the changes which were made happened. My personal feeling is that the current temple ceremony is much more spiritual with the new changes than the old one. There is no more touching in the initiatory, either.

My point in this discussion has been more in general terms of various religious worship. In my opinion, all religions have different types of rituals. Some more than others. I think that the reason the temple ceremony seems so "out of place" with the rest of LDS worship is because, frankly, LDS Church services are so pablum.

The Catholic Church, for example, is very rich with pomp and circumstance. When I attended a Palm Sunday service at a friend's Catholic congregation, it was quite a spectacle....beautiful music...everyone waving their little mini palm tree branch on cue!

In Judaism, have you ever attended a bar mitzvah or a briss?

The LDS temple is the only place where any type of symbolism or ceremony occurs. But put into perspective of other religions, I really don't see it, particularly in its current form, as being anymore negative to society at large than any other type of deeply religious symbolic ceremony.

[_Buffalo]

It's called ritual. Poetry in motion. If you don't understand its importance then I can't help you. You should read more Campbell.

Campbell knows that the importance of ritual is not in the pretended supernatural benefits, but in physically acting out the rituals themselves, whatever they are. You should read more Campbell, too.

[Guest]

Got it, so you dress up "cosplay" style, pretend to be adam in the garden of eden (in fact, isn't there a part where god actually calls you adam?), pretend to get kicked out of the garden of eden and then, as adam, pretend to talk to various other characters from the Bible while learning the "real" steps to becoming a god...Thanks for clearing that up!

It's called ritual. Poetry in motion. If you don't understand its importance then I can't help you. You should read more Campbell.

Yes, it is a ritual. It is a ritual that tells you that if you watch a nature movie, then learn Masonic handshakes, gestures, and passwords while dressing up in a baker's hat and a leaf apron, then you have fulfilled a mandatory requirement to becoming a god.

Then you can repeat this on behalf of the ghosts of your ancestors and/or random strangers whose names are on strips of paper being handed out. So you pretend to be a dead person who is pretending to be Adam going through his life, which represents you going through your life. Then you practice giving the secret handshakes and passwords so you'll know what to do when you die and want to go into the Celestial Kingdom. In other words, you're pretending to be a dead person who is pretending to be Adam, who is pretending to be dead.

So taking out your own endowments is like getting Rickrolled, whereas doing it on behalf of a dead person is like getting Rickrolled by Barry Manilow.

[_Darth J]

The LDS temple is the only place where any type of symbolism or ceremony occurs.

Liz, you know in sacrament meeting, when they pass out the bread and water? That isn't a snack.

And you know when you're 8, and they dress you up in white and then dunk you underwater? They're not taking you swimming.

[_Yoda]

The LDS temple is the only place where any type of symbolism or ceremony occurs.

Liz, you know in sacrament meeting, when they pass out the bread and water? That isn't a snack.

And you know when you're 8, and they dress you up in white and then dunk you underwater? They're not taking you swimming.

OK, smartass, I don't know why you're being obnoxious with me when I think that I have kept our conversation civil.

Obviously, yes, these are also acts of symbolism. What I meant to say was that they were not as intense as the temple ceremony, and the other ceremonies in Catholicism and Judaism I mentioned.

Please treat me with the respect I deserve or this conversation will end here and now.

[_Yoda]

And, Darth, through all of your smugness, you still have not demonstrated how the LDS temple ceremony is any worse, or anymore negative, than any other symbolically-intensive religious ceremony.

[_Some Schmo]

But put into perspective of other religions, I really don't see it, particularly in its current form, as being anymore negative to society at large than any other type of deeply religious symbolic ceremony.

But put into perspective of other fast food restaurants, I really don't see McDonald's, particularly in its current form, as being anymore negative to society at large than any other type of styrofoam serving fast food joint.

I thought we'd established, liz, that the argument "all the other religions suck just as bad as mine does" was not a terribly effective one.