Envy of Non-Members

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

It doesn't seem to bother you. But some day every knee will bow including yours.

Hello Mr. Bot,

Your god is a bit up his own ass. I hope you enjoy kissing it for all eternity. :D

V/R
Dr. C

[_Jason Bourne]

I have thought a bit more about this. Especially after this AM and going to the funeral of a friend who very unexpectedly died last Monday. He was only 60. Had a flue type issue that apparently turned to pneumonia and he died in his sleep.

I like faith. I know there are many issues with the LDS Church one can use to poke holes into its claims. I know there are issues with Christianity too. I know that God has not been proven to exist and science seems to refute much of which seems critical for Christian truth claims unless one wants to modify their views and be more liberal about things.

There is a lot that worries and concerns me about the LDS Church and at times religion in general. Personally I really do not have a longing to go live some hedonistic life style. Nor if I gave up membership in the LDS Church do I think my lifestyle would change much. Maybe a beer or tea, or a glass of wine once in a while. But I would not drink a lot because of two reasons. The first is alcohol problems run strong in my heritage and I know that my disposition might be towards using liquor excessively. Next I am very physically active. I have done endurance cycling for six year including many 100 mile rides each year, ultra marathon races of 12 hours and multi day tour rides. This year I started racing and have done some road races and focused on time trial events as well. I was 4th in my state and 78th in the USA for my age and class. So too much booze would be bad for that! Need to watch the weight especially for races with hills, which they all seem to have!

I guess if I was not LDS I would have a free up tithing. But I really do not mind paying tithing and I am all for fast offering and humanitarian funding as well as the perpetual education fund. I would probably just give the 10% to other organizations so I would not have extra cash. I like giving really.

I am happily married and love my wife intensely and deeply. Not rocking her life with abandoning our religion is really important. I would not want to do anything that would betray her whether I am LDS or not.

So little would change if I were not LDS perhaps other than maybe worshiping not at all or somewhere else on my own. I discussed this with a person that I have used for therapy as well as where my faith has led me. I saw this man for counseling personally as a TBM and as my faith has modified. He agrees that as far as how I live little will change where ever my faith takes me.

So I as I started to say, the community that comes from being part of a faith group is a tremendous thing. I saw it today and have seen it this year as we have had our own personal tragedies. Also from an view of what life is and what it might hold I guess I like leaning on my faith a bit as well. I am open more than ever that this life may be all we have. Yet my heart is still tugged toward belief that this just did not all start on its own and that it is not the end. And I am fully aware that I cannot prove it.

Well my friend who died this week now knows, or is asleep forever. I wish if there is something more I could talk to him right now. We have had many deep discussions about this and such things over the years. He was a thinker and a bit quirky in some of his thoughts. But always he thought it through. I am happy he was a faithful man, to his religion, his wife and family. He had little by the way of the world. He ran a small business doing what he loved. But he raised 8 wonderful children was able to support them with his wife at home ( their choice). He joined the Church as a young adult. He was one of the most patient fathers I know. I wanted to be more like him. His life was full as a faithful latter day saint. His wife and children have great comfort from their own faith. Is that bad even if there really is nothing? I do not think I have the answer to that. Maybe some of you who are much smarter than me do.

So no I really do not envy non members. My LDS life has been a pretty good one. I think it won't hurt me to continue in it at least most days.

[Guest]

Perhaps I missed something... but, my God man... really? That's life you're so casually dismissing. The greatest expression of the divine.

See Chap's post on the previous page.

I don't dismiss life at all. Life is doubly sacred to me, because I believe it's all we get.

[_Hades]

I felt similar to Some Schmo. I never wanted to be weird. I was envious of normal people who didn't have to wear the Mormon label on their backs all the time. You have to either hide the fact that you are Mormon or be ok with being the weird Mormon dude.

[_honorentheos]

I have thought a bit more about this. Especially after this AM and going to the funeral of a friend who very unexpectedly died last Monday. He was only 60. Had a flue type issue that apparently turned to pneumonia and he died in his sleep.

... My LDS life has been a pretty good one. I think it won't hurt me to continue in it at least most days.

Very moving post, Jason. Thank you for sharing it.

[_CaliforniaKid]

As a side note, the other day I came across an ancient Indian critique of the Vedic sacrificial cult. It said, "If the sacrificed beast will surely go to heaven, then why doesn't the priest sacrifice his own father?" Another one said, "If offering food on earth satisfies the gods in heaven, then why don't we offer food in the living room to satisfy those on the roof?" Apparently there have been skeptics as long as there have been religions.

[_honorentheos]

I am beginning to think I may be an outlier example as I really only felt this way as a teen. Once I had served a mission and started to find myself as an adult I can't say I really felt envious of non-members. Just as I don't find it particularly productive to regard other's lives who are different than my own now as a former member with any particular envy.

I have noticed not much attention has been paid to the second half of Liz's question - how some may have over-come these feelings. For me, it came about as I stopped thinking about the church and instead began thinking about the gospel. I don't recall if it was sudden or gradual.

In the thread I linked to in the celestial forum, I had asked this question -

This left me considering - how do most LDS on the boards view the transformation of wo/man, as God/ess-in-embryo, into Godhood? Are the traits of God something that most view must be developed through practice and persistent effort in mortality? or are they to be bestowed on a person when they have crossed a threshold? Like having posted so many times, regardless of content, on a message board maybe?

I linked this to a chapter in the Book of Mormon in Alma, chapter 41, which I had given my own title in my quad - "The Law of Restoration". I also linked this to D&C 88. In particular, verse 40:

"40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things."

In other words, I viewed it as men and women become the kingdom in this life they would inherit in the next. The ordinances and other proxy work only served to unlock the door for those who have already were becoming celestial in thought and action.

[_sock puppet]

His wife and children have great comfort from their own faith. Is that bad even if there really is nothing? I do not think I have the answer to that. Maybe some of you who are much smarter than me do.

Once the curtain is drawn back on the great and powerful Oz, and one sees the little man pulling the levers, then I think that Oz is no longer a tool by which we are manipulated. Of course, I am talking about the organizational aspect of religion, not the faith aspect and you, Jason, were clearly focusing on the faith aspect.

I would like to see many of my friends and family members that have died. I fancy the idea that it might be possible once again to enjoy the comfort of their personalities. Otherwise death has a finality to it that is difficult for the frail human emotions to handle and adjust. So I have hope that it will be possible.

Since no one has come back from the grave (that's right, I don't believe the story of Jesus' resurrection or Lazarus being raised from the dead, and I think NDEs are explainable as a psychological, sensory experience), that uncertainty makes us even more emotionally vulnerable.

And then, if like the early followers of JSJr, you are more fringe of society than in its mainstream, there's the appeal of a 'just' god righting all the wrongs in the hereafter.

When someone claims a super-powerful being, a god, has told him or her a message for me and other people, and not to 'trust in the arm of flesh', the irony is too much. That's right, the speaker is actually saying, believe what I, a man, that claims I speak for god, says rather than what other men, those that appeal to reason and logic might say. The speaker is playing off of our insecurities and our hopes, as leverage to convince us to do what he wants us to do.

The contrived excuses are too much, about the veil being preserved so that we must have faith rather than actual knowledge, so that we can be tested. Then why has this god violated that veil, polluted the sanctity of that not-knowing test, by appearing to a man (prophet) here and there on rare occasions? Why not keep the test pristine, see what each of us would do on his or her own, without these rare, reported sightings? Why would he want to undermine the integrity of the test by having those to whom he has appeared spread the word?

This test, as so fallibly constructed by this god, asks us to disregard logic and reason based on sensory data about the physical surroundings, and belief what another man tells us. That's ludicrous, and the epitome of asking us to put our trust in the arm of flesh--that other man.

So, is faith bad? Not if, as you Jason have described it, it is a hope for something after this life, a hope to see deceased friends and family again. The comfort against the brutal finality of death is appealing. But faith is also frequently used to mean adherence to an organized religion, a tool used by some men to scare others into doing what those 'religious leaders' tell them to do. In this sense, I consider it venal.

[_gramps]

sock puppet wrote:

The contrived excuses are too much, about the veil being preserved so that we must have faith rather than actual knowledge, so that we can be tested. Then why has this god violated that veil, polluted the sanctity of that not-knowing test, by appearing to a man (prophet) here and there on rare occasions? Why not keep the test pristine, see what each of us would do on his or her own, without these rare, reported sightings? Why would he want to undermine the integrity of the test by having those to whom he has appeared spread the word?

Yes, exactly.

[_Jason Bourne]

Once the curtain is drawn back on the great and powerful Oz, and one sees the little man pulling the levers, then I think that Oz is no longer a tool by which we are manipulated. Of course, I am talking about the organizational aspect of religion, not the faith aspect and you, Jason, were clearly focusing on the faith aspect.

I can agree with that and this is the problems I see in the LDS and other Churches. Faith means more often than not comply with the parameter and dogma of the organization. Just see what Bot said to me above about every knee bowing. He knows that I still maintain faith in God and even Jesus yet he equates even my knee bowing to what he views as my hypocrisy in connection to the LDS Church and my anonymous posting and complaints here.

I would like to see many of my friends and family members that have died. I fancy the idea that it might be possible once again to enjoy the comfort of their personalities. Otherwise death has a finality to it that is difficult for the frail human emotions to handle and adjust. So I have hope that it will be possible.

Agreed.

Since no one has come back from the grave (that's right, I don't believe the story of Jesus' resurrection or Lazarus being raised from the dead, and I think NDEs are explainable as a psychological, sensory experience), that uncertainty makes us even more emotionally vulnerable.

Ok. I still have Hope the Jesus was the real deal but because the evidence is so slim and smal I also understand this may just be my wish and there is a high probability I may be wrong. NDEs I do not know enough about to discuss.

When someone claims a super-powerful being, a god, has told him or her a message for me and other people, and not to 'trust in the arm of flesh', the irony is too much. That's right, the speaker is actually saying, believe what I, a man, that claims I speak for god, says rather than what other men, those that appeal to reason and logic might say. The speaker is playing off of our insecurities and our hopes, as leverage to convince us to do what he wants us to do.

I think this is well said. And really I recall reading passages of scripture that say not to rely on the arm of flesh and thinking "well whoever is writing this is the arm of flesh." Even my own spiritual experiences come to me through my physical person. And these days I have trouble trusting anyone who claims or claimed God is telling them what to tell me so I need to do what they say.

So, is faith bad? Not if, as you Jason have described it, it is a hope for something after this life, a hope to see deceased friends and family again. The comfort against the brutal finality of death is appealing. But faith is also frequently used to mean adherence to an organized religion, a tool used by some men to scare others into doing what those 'religious leaders' tell them to do. In this sense, I consider it venal.

I understand that my faith is likely stage 4 or 5 (according to what I know about Fowler-I need to read this book) and that most of what many said at the funeral today was more 1-3 type stages. Much testimony about the Church, priesthood power and sealing ordinances and so on. But for where these people are at this point I am ok with that and would never try to shake that up for them. That is their own challenge if they ever want to seek further. And I still often ask myself who knows? Maybe they are really right and I am wrong.