Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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_jon
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

I would like to know how Monson knows this...

Arthur Patton died quickly.

(from the 2007 version)
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
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_Steve Benson
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Steve Benson »

Monson did not have any factual basis for declaring Patton to have been "lost at sea." He may have assured his audience that Patton "died quickly" in this false death scenario through a brazen emotional play to his faithful listeners who could have been understandably hoping, upon hearing Monson spin his embellished tale, that Patton's death was mercifully swift.

In other words, it appears to have been a presentation gimmick on Monson's part. He's been using such heart-string triggers for decades.
_Chap
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Chap »

So it looks very much as if Arthur Patten went missing from his ship "due to his own misconduct" when the White Plains was peacefully anchored in Eniwetok atoll on 4th July 1944, days after the action at Saipan. Maybe some kind naval officer told his Mom that her son was 'missing in action' to give her the comfort of thinking her son died gallantly for his country, when in reality he fell overboard after celebrating a bit too enthusiastically. We can't tell. Anyway, she is very unlikely to have told the young Monson that he went down with the Lexington in May 1942, rather than going missing from the White Plains in 1944.

It is worth while looking back at the OP and reminding ourselves that in general conference, April 6, 1969, Thomas Monson told his enthralled audience:

The flight from Brisbane, Australia, to San Francisco is a long one. There is time to read, time to sleep, and time to ponder and think. As a passenger on this flight, I was awakened by the calm, resonant sound of the pilot’s voice as he announced: “Ladies and gentlemen, we’re now passing over the Coral Sea, scene of the great sea battle of World War II.”

Through the cabin window I could see billowy, white clouds and far below the azure blue of the vast Pacific. My thoughts turned to the events of that fateful eighth day of May in 1942 when the mammoth aircraft carrier Lexington slipped to its final resting place on the ocean floor. Twenty-seven hundred thirty-five sailors scrambled to safety. Others were not so fortunate. One who went down with his ship was my boyhood friend Arthur Patton.


Can anyone who heard Monson have suspected this was just plain wrong? He can't have had that experience on the plane, because no-one could ever have told him that Patten died in 1942 on the Lexington, And the whole 'battle of the Coral Sea/Lexington sinking' story is crucial to the core element in this faith-promoting talk:

Then came the Battle of the Coral Sea, the sinking of the Lexington, and the death of Arthur Patton. The blue star was taken from its hallowed spot in the front window. It was replaced by one of gold. A light went out in the life of Mrs. Patton. She groped in utter darkness and deep despair.

With a prayer in my heart, I approached the familiar walkway to the Patton home, wondering what words of comfort could come from the lips of a mere boy. The door opened and Mrs. Patton embraced me as she would her own son. Home became a chapel as a grief-stricken mother and a less-than-adequate boy knelt in prayer.


It just can't have happened that way. If the story of when and how Patten died is unreliable, how can we be sure Monson visited Mrs Patten at all? If he had, wouldn't she have told him where and when her son died? It begins to look as though he heard that Patten died in the Pacific, and the rest just fabulated itself into existence.

I am not saying Monson was lying in the sense that he deliberately told an untruth with the intention of deceiving, although he certainly does seem to have been reckless in making statements as if they were true when they were not. It is however clear that his faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts".
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_jon
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

Chap, do you think this is different, In any material way, to that which got Dunn removed from office?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_Chap
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Chap »

jon wrote:Chap, do you think this is different, In any material way, to that which got Dunn removed from office?


I suspect the difference is one of degree rather than kind.

Phenomena like this seem to me likely to be a result of the systematic training of young minds to put faith and feelings first, and not to let intellectual quibbles get in the way too much. On another thread Dr Shades makes a related point by quoting from the Book of Mormon:

Moroni 7:16

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.


The "way to judge" what someone tells you is evidently to ask whether it 'inviteth' you to perform morally approved acts, and to have correct religious beliefs. Whether what they say is factually true or not is, in comparison, not important enough to be mentioned
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_jon
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

Chap wrote:For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

The "way to judge" what someone tells you is evidently to ask whether it 'inviteth' you to perform morally approved acts, and to have correct religious beliefs. Whether what they say is factually true or not is, in comparison, not important enough to be mentioned


This is my point, it was important enough to result in Dunn's demise. So how can Monson survive something that got an Apostle canned?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_Chap
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Chap »

jon wrote:
Chap wrote:For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

The "way to judge" what someone tells you is evidently to ask whether it 'inviteth' you to perform morally approved acts, and to have correct religious beliefs. Whether what they say is factually true or not is, in comparison, not important enough to be mentioned


This is my point, it was important enough to result in Dunn's demise. So how can Monson survive something that got an Apostle canned?


Dunn let his creativity have full leash to the extent that it produced a whole career in baseball that never existed - though no doubt he started small, with just a few minor 'improvement' to favorite anecdotes. Monson may just have let a vague reminiscence that a boyhood acquaintance didn't come back from the Pacific grow into yet another falsely modest but self-glorifying widow story with a faith-promoting point.

With Monson, you can perhaps say "maybe he didn't remember it right", but with Dunn you couldn't. So Dunn had to take one for the team when it all came out, whereas supporters of Monson get to play the 'he just misremembered, but that's not important' card.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Fifth Columnist
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Fifth Columnist »

Mormon Stories interviewed Greg Prince and one of the topics discussed was Paul Dunn. Greg said that most GAs commonly embellish stories to make them more faith promoting than factual. Paul Dunn was the most aggressive practitioner of the art, but don't kid yourself - they all do it.
_Buffalo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Buffalo »

So, long story short, it's sort of based on a true story, but Monson fudged the important details? Is that what it looks like now?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_stemelbow
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _stemelbow »

I"m still trying to figure out the big fuss here. Bear with me a minute if you would.

So in 1969 Monson tells a story of a boy he knew that entered WWII and from his perspective was killed, as far as we know Monson heard this news in the neighborhood. While the boy was in service Monson would stop by the house and it appears became friends to some degree with the mother of the boy. After the news came to the mother that the boy was killed Monson also stopped by and chatted with her.

Its an interesting story leaving out many details--details Monson was most likely not privy to, and perhaps even the mother wasn't so privy to.

After mentioning the story in 1969 when Monson was 42 he got a letter from the mother essentially thanking him for remembering, making her feel better, and for answering questions she had.

nearly 40 years later Monson brings it up again with some details different from his 1969 mention. Again who knows how much he actually knew about it all?

So my question is, what does it matter how the kid died? We don't know how, monson doesn't know how? Perhaps he thought he knew how he died? Perhaps he did die earlier and the records weren't precisely kept? We simply don't know. All we do know that this story had an effect on Monson. It was his to tell. He actually knew the kid and his mother. He helped to comfort the mother. The mother was grateful.

This is turning into a witch hunt now. Somehow this equates to the fabrications of Paul Dunn to some of you. I'll wager there are stories yet to be told and stories that have been told that people here are going to scrutinze the same way all because the stories were told by LDS.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
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