I've switched sides...again

[_Mad Viking]

This is one giant argument from ignorance.

[_Buffalo]

Not to quibble over a couple of years, but wasn't Helen Mar Joseph Smith's youngest at 14, and Jeff's bride here is 12? There is a good deal of development between 12 and 14 (not that I'm saying 14 is old enough to marry by any means, but it has happened often enough throughout history). And it is possible that Joseph Smith didn't consummate with Helen Mar. So to me the creep factor is a bit less.

Jeffs did have a 12 year old, but I thought this picture was of the 14 year old. I guess it could be the 12 year old though.

The creep factor with the 14 year old is about the same. I agree that sleeping with a 12 year old is even creepier.

[_BartBurk]

I went through what you did and wound up becoming Catholic after many years of searching. If I hadn't become interested in Catholicism it is very easy for me to see how I could have just returned to activity in the LDS Church as well. There is quite a lot of good in the LDS Church.

[_Nightlion]

The one question I would still like to you what you think, if you are willing, is, Do you think the brain capable of producing powerful expereinces without divine assistance?

ANother problem the doubters have as they attempt to guess at what a spiritual experience is would be that they are not identical in the least, not as the defamers expect that they must be. If brain induced how could you account for such a variety of degrees of impressions, vis; comforts, confirmations, sanctifications, forgiveness, new heart, new mind, sudden thoughts, new views, new might, new strength, new sight, unfolding of scriptural insight, healing, rebukes, testimony, prophecy, miracles, virtue of salting the earth with truth wrung out from your soul, your body renewed, being wrought upon with fire and the power of the Holy Ghost, warnings, finding what you need quickly, fast for forty days, ability to swing you battle axe all day long in battle, etc. Oh, wait, then there is Nephi suddenly able to smelt ore, make tools and build a ship as if he got a MATRIX upload of knowledge, same with Noah. Saying none of that ever happened is a cop out. I have had talent uploads I swear to it.

Then you have to deal with how such a random act as the proclivities of each brain could possible agree with the supposed proclivities of a brain in someone who lived thousands of years ago. How could separate brains draw unto Christ the same and advance through degrees of righteousness the same and function as if they were the same brain separated by so much time and death?

You guys are bringing cap pistols for logic when you need a death star in the fight. Please go figure.

[_Themis]

The one question I would still like to you what you think, if you are willing, is, Do you think the brain capable of producing powerful expereinces without divine assistance?

ANother problem the doubters have as they attempt to guess at what a spiritual experience is would be that they are not identical in the least, not as the defamers expect that they must be. If brain induced how could you account for such a variety of degrees of impressions, vis; comforts, confirmations, sanctifications, forgiveness, new heart, new mind, sudden thoughts, new views, new might, new strength, new sight, unfolding of scriptural insight, healing, rebukes, testimony, prophecy, miracles, virtue of salting the earth with truth wrung out from your soul, your body renewed, being wrought upon with fire and the power of the Holy Ghost, warnings, finding what you need quickly, fast for forty days, ability to swing you battle axe all day long in battle, etc. Oh, wait, then there is Nephi suddenly able to smelt ore, make tools and build a ship as if he got a MATRIX upload of knowledge, same with Noah. Saying none of that ever happened is a cop out. I have had talent uploads I swear to it.

I think the brain is very complex, and capable of producing multitudes of different expereinces. I also don't exclude how the environment may be involved, or even the possibility of some divine source of influence. The question I would still like the OP to answer, if willing, is whether he thinks the brain capable of producing powerful expereinces without divine assistance? I think you may not think it possible. I think the brain to complex, and so much not known that it remains a very plausible, if not likely. ADS to your examples, most of the world including many Christian consider them fictional characters and stories.

Then you have to deal with how such a random act as the proclivities of each brain could possible agree with the supposed proclivities of a brain in someone who lived thousands of years ago. How could separate brains draw unto Christ the same and advance through degrees of righteousness the same and function as if they were the same brain separated by so much time and death?

Not quite sure what you mean.

I will be gone for a few days so I wont be able to respond.

[_why me]

I went through what you did and wound up becoming Catholic after many years of searching. If I hadn't become interested in Catholicism it is very easy for me to see how I could have just returned to activity in the LDS Church as well. There is quite a lot of good in the LDS Church.

True enough.