ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

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_jon
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _jon »

jon wrote:Hoops, do you believe that Adam was created circa 6,000 years ago and that all human life started from him (and Eve)?

Do you also believe that humanity was wiped out in the great flood which took place between Adam and Christ sometime and from which all current human life on the planet stems from?


*cough, cough*
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_Some Schmo
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Some Schmo »

Franktalk wrote: The bottom line is it seems to me that you want to play around with time in science but not allow time to be played with in Genesis.

It seems to me that you want to play around with language at the expense of common sense in order to make whatever preconceived creation myth important to you fit with accepted science.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_DrW
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _DrW »

Franktalk wrote:DrW,

Do you believe in relativity of space and time? Einstein laid out a connection between space and time that has been tested many ways and always so far comes out as he predicted. So depending on your frame of reference time can be different from one observer to another. If you believe this then why all of the arguing about time in Genesis. You seem to allow time changes in science but don't allow for time frame changes in scripture. Is it possible that Genesis should be looked at through the lens of science? Time frame issues are fun to examine. Have you ever looked into the white hole cosmology? It is just a different approach to the expanding universe.

The bottom line is it seems to me that you want to play around with time in science but not allow time to be played with in Genesis. If indeed God made the universe I would think He has a pretty good understanding of space and time. Just Maybe God is telling us something in Genesis about that very issue.

Franktalk,

With regard to your question about "relativity of time and space" please see my post above ( Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:43 pm ).

Keeping in mind that most scientists (including Einstein) considered Genesis to be a myth born of superstition, let's consider whether relativity could be used to rationally interpret the period of time involved in the "six days of creation" in Genesis in light of what we know about the age of the Earth. Before I go over this for you, I would say that someone with even a basic background in science should be able to work this out for themselves, so I am not sure why you are asking me, but I will take your question as sincere.

As I pointed out, time dilation, or the slowing of time for a near light speed traveler as observed by a (relatively) stationary observer, requires that extremely high relative velocities be involved. Since we are talking about the Earth, and no part of the Earth could move at near the speed of light relative to another part, relativistic time dilation would not seem to apply to the observations of the human authors of Genesis.

If one then claims that Genesis was somehow written by God, or from God's perspective, and that the "days of creation" were according to the reckoning of time according to God, then God would have had to have been traveling at (very) near the speed of light away from his creation while he was creating it.

As I have pointed on the MADBoard in relation to superluminal travel by the angel Moroni or God and Jesus Christ traveling from Kolob to appear to Joseph Smith, the energies required for a human sized mass to achieve near light speed (let's say 99.99% of the speed of light for example) are extremely high.

I suppose it is theoretically possible to calculate the speed that God would have to achieve while traveling away from his creation (as he was creating i)t in order to make the six days of creation by God's reckoning be 4.5 billion years on Earth by Earth clock reckoning. Since I don't have enough places on my cell phone calculator for the number of 9's required, all I will say in that regard is that the Mormon anthropomorphic God would have had to have near infinite energy at his disposal, and would have had to use it all to achieve such speeds.

According to relativity, travel of a object with mass at the speed of light would require infinite energy, and the speed required to achieve such a time dilation for a body with mass would be only be possible in theory.

And to what avail? By the time the Earth was ready for humankind, relativistic God would have been well on his way to the observed outer limits of the universe, and would have had a really hard time communicating with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when it came time to give them their walking papers. This is because the universal speed limit (c) also applies to the transfer of information.

I have posted this explanation, with the math, on the old MADB in response to questions about answering prayers from Kolob, and could probably find it for a re-post here, if you like.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Franktalk
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Franktalk »

DrW wrote:...It is possible to calculate speed that God would have to achieve while traveling away from his creation as he was creating it in order to make the six days of creation by God's reckoning be 4.5 billion years on Earth by Earth clock reckoning. Since I don't have enough places on my cell phone calculator for the number of 9's required, I will say in that regard is the Mormon anthropomorphic God would have had to have near infinite energy at his disposal, and would have had to use it all to achieve such speeds. (According to relativity, travel of a object with mass at the speed of light would require infinite energy.)...


I see so objects really can't travel at the speed of light. Yet you believe in an expanding universe where galaxies can travel faster than the speed of light. Or maybe you don't believe in an expanding universe.

"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be heard from again."

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questi ... number=575

So if in the expanding universe theory galaxies can move faster than light then why not a single body. If indeed God is master of space and time it would make sense that He could do what one of His created galaxies can do. What about worm holes? Do you believe they exist? Or do you just think they exist for man and not for anybody else?
_Buffalo
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Buffalo »

Hoops wrote:
According to your approach to "truth", anyone can make up any story they want about what happened during the creation "days" and then claim, as you do, that since we "do not know" that their version is a valid as anyone that from anyone else.
No, that's not the case at all. Is it not true that time is relative? Doesn't science tell us that time flows at different rates depending on one's location in the universe? The Bible supports this based on the language in Gen 1:1-32. That's the question. Not whether ANY theory can be inserted here, but if the Biblical record tells us what Buffalo claims it does - that is: the earth is 6000 years old. It does not, by at least one interpretation.


Now you're misusing both science AND the Bible. Classic bcspace move. Congrats!
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Buffalo »

Franktalk wrote:
DrW wrote:...It is possible to calculate speed that God would have to achieve while traveling away from his creation as he was creating it in order to make the six days of creation by God's reckoning be 4.5 billion years on Earth by Earth clock reckoning. Since I don't have enough places on my cell phone calculator for the number of 9's required, I will say in that regard is the Mormon anthropomorphic God would have had to have near infinite energy at his disposal, and would have had to use it all to achieve such speeds. (According to relativity, travel of a object with mass at the speed of light would require infinite energy.)...


I see so objects really can't travel at the speed of light. Yet you believe in an expanding universe where galaxies can travel faster than the speed of light. Or maybe you don't believe in an expanding universe.

"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be heard from again."

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questi ... number=575

So if in the expanding universe theory galaxies can move faster than light then why not a single body. If indeed God is master of space and time it would make sense that He could do what one of His created galaxies can do. What about worm holes? Do you believe they exist? Or do you just think they exist for man and not for anybody else?


You misunderstood the article. Here's a simpler explanation:

http://www.universetoday.com/13808/how- ... -of-light/

This sounds like it breaks Einstein’s theories, but it doesn’t. The galaxies themselves aren’t actually moving very quickly through space, it’s the space itself which is expanding away, and the galaxy is being carried along with it. As long as the galaxy doesn’t try to move quickly through space, no physical laws are broken.

One sad side effect of this expansion is that most of the galaxies will have receded over this horizon in about 3 trillion years, and future cosmologists will never know there’s a great big Universe out there.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Tarski
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Tarski »

Hoops wrote: Except for the language used.


Like what?
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Franktalk
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Franktalk »

Buffalo wrote:You misunderstood the article. Here's a simpler explanation:


You assume I misunderstood. Like so many before you. In a nut shell - if the space between galaxies expands there is an apparent movement of the parts in space.

So what. If this is an observed part of the cosmos and the Creator made it all He can do more than the parts He created. My point is if He wants to move through space He can using what ever means He wishes. If He removes space before Him He can travel at any speed He desires. Using our own science we can create a mechanism for most things we may hold as supernatural. Because we can't manipulate time and space does not mean that the creator of the universe has those same limitations. Many try and place a man made box around God. I don't do that.
_Buffalo
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Buffalo »

Franktalk wrote:
Buffalo wrote:You misunderstood the article. Here's a simpler explanation:


You assume I misunderstood. Like so many before you. In a nut shell - if the space between galaxies expands there is an apparent movement of the parts in space.

So what. If this is an observed part of the cosmos and the Creator made it all He can do more than the parts He created. My point is if He wants to move through space He can using what ever means He wishes. If He removes space before Him He can travel at any speed He desires. Using our own science we can create a mechanism for most things we may hold as supernatural. Because we can't manipulate time and space does not mean that the creator of the universe has those same limitations. Many try and place a man made box around God. I don't do that.


You're still not getting it. The space itself is expanding. The apparent movement of the galaxies is relative to other galaxies, but they're moving comparatively slowly through space.

So what? The point is it renders your unscientific thought experiment moot.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Tarski
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Tarski »

Franktalk wrote: Many try and place a man made box around God. I don't do that.

Thus, all the misguided appeals to faster than light travel and so on were just unnecessary.
You may as well cut to the chase and just say that God can use magic to do anything he wants. If there is laws or logic in the way, he just changes the logic or rules. Better yet he can just directly violate the laws without changing them at all.

With the all purpose notion of miracle in hand, the religionist is unstoppable.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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