Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

[_Some Schmo]

Whatever has happened before doesn't matter today...unless you can prove to me right here, right now, that God doesn't exist and that there isn't any ultimate rhyme or reason for life on earth today, no matter how it may have evolved over time.

Should we discard belief in God and a hereafter because we may run into difficulties as we try to put some old pieces of a puzzle together and make a complete/whole picture?

Regards,
MG

You make it sound like there are only a couple pieces missing in a 5000 piece jigsaw. I imagine most people around here think that all we've got are a couple pieces and the other 4998 have been blown to bits.

[_mentalgymnast]

Whatever has happened before doesn't matter today...unless you can prove to me right here, right now, that God doesn't exist and that there isn't any ultimate rhyme or reason for life on earth today, no matter how it may have evolved over time.

Should we discard belief in God and a hereafter because we may run into difficulties as we try to put some old pieces of a puzzle together and make a complete/whole picture?

Regards,
MG

You make it sound like there are only a couple pieces missing in a 5000 piece jigsaw. I imagine most people around here think that all we've got are a couple pieces and the other 4998 have been blown to bits.

Unless the atheists can prove the non-existence of God and that there isn't any ultimate rhyme or reason for life on earth, then it is reasonable to consider the possibility that there is.

It's that simple.

Regards,
MG

[_Jhall118]

This is actually testable though it would involve human babies placed in a sealed-off environment and watching their generations grow. I think you would lose this proposition.

Herp derp watch BCSpace get owned.

Actually your "testable" proposition doesn't need to be tested at all! There are millions of people alive today who despite being our same species (e.g. we can reproduce) they do not have writing, civilization, and are still hunting and gathering as our ancestors did. Why is this? Well first, they are geographically isolated. Second, because they live in areas that are unsuitable for agriculture. No access to domesticated crops etc. advance this.

for what it's worth, they speak unique languages, and have never heard of the Tower of Babel.

[_Some Schmo]

Unless the atheists can prove the non-existence of God and that there isn't any ultimate rhyme or reason for life on earth, then it is reasonable to consider the possibility that there is.

It's that simple.

Regards,
MG

Well, I completely agree with that.

I suppose our only disagreement is on how much time should be spent considering the possibility before dismissing it. And I guess that would depend not on if it's possible, but how probable you think it is.

[_bcspace]

Actually your "testable" proposition doesn't need to be tested at all! There are millions of people alive today who despite being our same species (e.g. we can reproduce) they do not have writing, civilization, and are still hunting and gathering as our ancestors did. Why is this? Well first, they are geographically isolated. Second, because they live in areas that are unsuitable for agriculture. No access to domesticated crops etc. advance this.

for what it's worth, they speak unique languages, and have never heard of the Tower of Babel.

And yet they are offshoots of the same group that did develop writing and civilization (finally) after a quarter of a million years or more. So what?

[_moksha]

Which means what regarding the gods Yahweh and El?

That perhaps they once were called Ninurta and Anu. Before that perhaps Sumschmo and Synapro.

[_Morley]

BC, please outline your Eden/Flood beliefs, geography, and timeline. I, for one, am very interested in them.

No timeline per se, but it all revolves around my acceptance of evolution and all science; recognizing that science does not necessarily equate to THE absolute truth but is a good method for trying to get there. So....

Big Bang/Evolution up to modern homo sapiens.

Recognizing that there are hundreds of thousands of years of big-brained homo sapiens who nevertheless don't come up with civilization until recently, I hypothesize that the preAdamite homo sapiens either were infused with a different spirit (not a spirit child of God) or there was a great revelation of knowledge (Eden and just after) that sparked humanity's uplift.

Assuming evolution, it proceeds until God determines all is ready and then (hypothestically) two homo sapiens are born who have spirit children of God as spirits within them and are placed into the garden. The question then arises as to is it just the garden in which there is no death or is it the whole world? There is doctrinal support for either and I can go either way. Then there was the Fall. The time in the garden could last many many years imho without being detected by say, a slow down in evolution.

As for a date, I'm flexible. But I think it makes more sense to push it back from the traditional 4000 BC to near 8000 BC and the rise of the first civilization.

So after the Fall, evolution, at least for homo sapiens depending on the extent of "no death", proceeds apace. No need to worry about Noah since the Flood is local. Continental drift is as science has it. In the Hebrew, the waters covering the land can just as easily be interpreted local and the separation in the days of Peleg need not be continental or refer to land at all.

The question might be asked what happened to those homo sapiens outside the garden (if there was an outside)? Well, perhaps they kept on going and because they had lesser spirits holding back their deveolpment, they couldn't compete and died out. Perhaps there was intermating and the resulting bodies all had spirit children of God despite the fact that one parent didn't. Or perhaps after the Fall, all homo sapiens thereafter gave birth to bodies with spirit children of God. In that last case, we would obviously not descend physically from Adam but in a spirit sense we are still consider part of the same family.

I'm sure there are other equally plausible explainations that could help my hypothesis and sure my hypothesis is not the only one that allows for evolution etc.

Evolution itself is supported in LDS scripture. In 2 Nephi 2:22 we see that everything was created AND THEN placed into a state of no death. So we have a period of creation in which the property of no death is not given. Thye Abraham account of the creation is evolution friendly. Some doctrine, such as that on D&C 77 in the institute manual makes the spiritual creation actually a physical one and negates the notion of seven dispensations being the whole history of the world. it's only the history we need be concerned about.

The 1909 statement does not preclude evolution.
The 1931 statement allows for preAdamite notions to exist without being contrary to LDS doctrine.

etc. etc.

So I am in conflict with LDS doctrine on the Flood and Peleg, but not on evolution.

Yes, you are in opposition to Church teaching on this - you are on your way to the dark side.

Doubt it. I've been advocating evolution since I was 15 and a Teacher in the Aaronic Priesthood and was brought before the bishop because of it. The SP, thanks to my Dad, got me off the hook. I am now having my first grandchildren. Nothing's changed in between regarding the status of my belief in the LDS Church as the only true Church. Doubts certainly have rose and fell, but nothing to cause an antiMormon radar to show a blip.

Thanks for sharing this.

You realize that no science works with this formulation of yours, right? For example, my Y-chromosome haplogroup (I) is about 25,000 years old and has been separate from hapologroup M for about 35,000 years. Our respective ancestors colonized different parts of the planet thousands of years ago. This wouldn't fit into your timeline, if we're all supposed to be related to someone (Adam & rib) 10k years ago.

(I'm gone till the first of next week, but will follow up.)

[_bcspace]

Thanks for sharing this.

You realize that no science works with this formulation of yours, right? For example, my Y-chromosome haplogroup (I) is about 25,000 years old and has been separate from hapologroup M for about 35,000 years. Our respective ancestors colonized different parts of the planet thousands of years ago. This wouldn't fit into your timeline, if we're all supposed to be related to someone (Adam & rib) 10k years ago.

(I'm gone till the first of next week, but will follow up.)

You don't seem to understand what I'm hypothesizing. I am not proposing at all that we must be physically related to someone 10k years back. My hypothesis has taken those groups into account. I am not in conflict with any science.

[_Drifting]

Thanks for sharing this.

You realize that no science works with this formulation of yours, right? For example, my Y-chromosome haplogroup (I) is about 25,000 years old and has been separate from hapologroup M for about 35,000 years. Our respective ancestors colonized different parts of the planet thousands of years ago. This wouldn't fit into your timeline, if we're all supposed to be related to someone (Adam & rib) 10k years ago.

(I'm gone till the first of next week, but will follow up.)

You don't seem to understand what I'm hypothesizing. I am not proposing at all that we must be physically related to someone 10k years back. My hypothesis has taken those groups into account. I am not in conflict with any science.

Do you believe that we are all literally descended from Adam and Eve?

[_Buffalo]

This is actually testable though it would involve human babies placed in a sealed-off environment and watching their generations grow. I think you would lose this proposition.

Herp derp watch BCSpace get owned.

Actually your "testable" proposition doesn't need to be tested at all! There are millions of people alive today who despite being our same species (e.g. we can reproduce) they do not have writing, civilization, and are still hunting and gathering as our ancestors did. Why is this? Well first, they are geographically isolated. Second, because they live in areas that are unsuitable for agriculture. No access to domesticated crops etc. advance this.

for what it's worth, they speak unique languages, and have never heard of the Tower of Babel.

Good call!