Found the truth, what next?

[_Themis]

So the LDS Church discourages doubt, but they don't always call it doubt? What other words do LDS leaders use, instead of doubt?


It would appear that we are quibbling over what it means to say that an organization discourages something. If saying an organization discourages something means that at times some of that organization's leaders tell the people that leader is responsible for that they should not be involved in that activity, then yes, it may very possibly be true that the LDS Church does discourage doubt. Or if saying that even means that leaders commonly tell the faithful that they shouldn't be involved in it, then it's also possible that it could be true that the LDS Church discourages doubt.

I just think it's strange that someone like me, who has over the last 52 years only missed my regular meetings a few times because of illness, can't remember hearing a word discouraging doubt over all those years, in a faith that you say discourages doubt. If the LDS Church really does discourage doubt, then it's done it in such a way that has never caught my attention.

Kevin Sim

LOL Every discussion here has you playing games. You are one of the few LDS that will defend anything they think is against the church. The church does discourage doubt. I gave examples that show this from it's leader. I have gown up in the church, so I have also seen how the culture does as well. This does not mean members will never express doubt, but most will not do so openly. Even you went to your MP which is fairly common. It's not an all or nothing. Other religions like JW are worse, and the more mainstream do it less. I know many who got into trouble for bringing up doubts publicly about some of the less known facts of LDS history.

[_mentalgymnast]

It has a been a long journey...

Yes it is. I remember years ago back in the early nineties I started my long journey...and I'm still on that journey. Initially I made the choice to remain active in the church because of my family situation and have found means and methods of staying in the church with my sense of integrity and even a degree of faith still intact. It is not always easy and at times very frustrating, as you well know, to travel that path.

For myself, in some of my toughest moments/periods along the way, I found that patience and fortitude were extremely important. Not jumping to any hasty conclusions based upon incomplete or distorted information. I've found along the way that laying troublesome issues out there in a piecemeal fashion to my own significant others didn't do anyone any good. In these instances when I did so, we each would come away with a sense of unfinished business and troublesome incompleteness and frustration. That can then lead to communication issues and problems with trust in other areas of the relationship.

There is so much of what we try to communicate that needs context in order provide any sense of resolution. Trying to provide that context for anyone else is extremely difficult if not impossible.

It is a personal path.

For you, my recommendation is to take things very slow and find a way to navigate within what I would call a "narrative format". The church and the restoration story provide a narrative in which players find a place to act and perform within a defined and vibrant community. There is much good that transpires week to week and month to month within the narrative of living within that Mormon system/community.

If you can look at what appear to you as being "lies" as being only a segment of the narrative in which there is much good that is also part of the story, and then concentrate/focus on the good and push the issues to the side (yes, I'm saying compartmentalize) for the benefit of your loved ones, you may find yourself in a place where you can live within the narrative and even find a place of fulfillment and happiness. After all, when it comes down to it, many people on the planet, to some degree or another, are living out their lives in a narrative fashion subscribing to a certain set of values and commitments to some type of organizational structure which is itself en capsulized within a narrative. With the net effect of being able to find a cohesive and meaningful way to interact with others and commit to a unified purpose. Being able to adjust and live within someone else's narrative because of your love and commitment to them and to provide for their feelings of security, well-being and sense of understanding life's meaning can be an act of true devotion and commitment on your part.

The non-believer, I think, has the responsibility to provide for the happiness of their significant other and a supportive environment for that other(s).

Good luck as you navigate and find a place within the narrative that you find yourself part of. There may not be, especially as you are patient with yourself and others, a downside to remaining an active member of the church for the benefit of your wife and others. Within a narrative format you can also find a degree of fulfillment and meaning while still having the freedom to let your mind explore other avenues of thought, etc.

Good luck!

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

The non-believer, I think, has the responsibility to provide for the happiness of their significant other and a supportive environment for that other(s).

Everyone has the same responsibility.

Good luck as you navigate and find a place within the narrative that you find yourself part of. There may not be, especially as you are patient with yourself and others, a downside to remaining an active member of the church for the benefit of your wife and others. Within a narrative format you can also find a degree of fulfillment and meaning while still having the freedom to let your mind explore other avenues of thought, etc.

Based on his OP, I think he has already recognized the church is not what it claims and is looking for ideas to help his wife see the same.

[_mentalgymnast]

Based on his OP, I think he has already recognized the church is not what it claims and is looking for ideas to help his wife see the same.

Providing a possible alternative/path. Are you opposed to that? If so, why?

He'll obviously take his own course.

No one wants to see a marriage crumble. Looking at various ways to adapt and/or move forward before making a final decision are useful, no?

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

Providing a possible alternative/path. Are you opposed to that? If so, why?

He'll obviously take his own course.

No one wants to see a marriage crumble. Looking at various ways to adapt and/or move forward before making a final decision are useful, no?

I am not opposed to other paths people take that they think is best for them, but he seems to want to tell his wife what he knows, and is looking for advice on how best to handle it. I think this shows some wisdom on his part with the realization that there could be very negative consequences. Like I said I think he already knows the church is not true. He may decide to go with it and keep his thoughts to himself, but it sounds like he would like his wife with him.

[_ludwigm]

Themis, thank you for pointing me to the Monson quote. But I assure you, I would have no problem admitting it if I could remember it ever occuring. I simply don't. I don't doubt that Thomas Monson ever made the statement you attributed to him; my point is simply that it's not something that's emphasized so much that it's caught my attention. So to say that showing "doubts is very discouraged in LDS culture" seems to be an exaggeration. Maybe I'm just not very observant, but I would think if doubts really are very discouraged in my culture, I would have noticed it.

Remember that faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other. Cast out doubt. Cultivate faith.

Thomas S. Monson, “The Call to Serve,” Ensign, Nov 2000, 47-49

This citation is from http://thomasmonson.com/101/thomas-s-mo ... s-on-faith.

1. You should have noticed these words. Priesthood Session, october 2000 conference. "The Call to Serve" by Thomas S. Monson. True, he was not president at that time. Maybe it was his private opinion. Ask bcspace, he is our doctrinal expert.

Anyway, You are just not very observant...

2. That sentence is - IMHO - simple tautology.
Faith and doubt are antonyms.

Antonyms by Answers.com: faith
Home > Library > Literature & Language > Antonyms
n
Definition: belief in a higher being
Antonyms: agnosticism, denial, doubt, rejection, skepticism, unbelief
n
Definition: trust in something
Antonyms: disbelief, distrust, doubt, misgiving, skepticism, suspicion

Cast out doubt. I think this is discouraging enough...

[_KevinSim]

Well then you deserve each other. You're both guilty of screwed up priorities.

Some Schmo, why do you think that either of us have "screwed up priorities"?

Yeah, that was before I knew she is just as messed up by religion as you are.

Why do you think that either of us are significantly "messed up"?

[_KevinSim]

It's just a way to divert a tbm from looking closer at the issues. Really faith, baptism, holy ghost, atonement, does not matter at all when there are certain facts that easily prove the Mormon church wrong.

What exactly are the "certain facts that easily prove the Mormon church wrong"?

I asked my Dad if he ever looked into evolution and he said that he never has really looked at it because it is not important to his salvation. But if he just looked at it then he would realize that this whole being saved thing doesn't really matter at all.

What exactly does evolution have to do with our need to be saved? B.H. Roberts actually believed in the Theory of Evolution, and I find myself leaning in the same direction. Why does that have anything to do with humanity's problem with its collective conscience?

[_Buffalo]

What exactly does evolution have to do with our need to be saved? B.H. Roberts actually believed in the Theory of Evolution, and I find myself leaning in the same direction. Why does that have anything to do with humanity's problem with its collective conscience?

Evolution renders all gods completely superflous and renders the Mormon God, a physical being and member of the homo sapiens/great apes species and the primate order with all his simian characteristics rather comical and ridiculous. A celestial great ape? Come on.

[_KevinSim]

Is this a joke?

Does the phrase "Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power" ring a bell?

No joke! Granted, God does call His power "almighty" many times, if the scriptures quote God accurately (or if, as in this case, Joseph Smith quotes Him accurately).

But Joseph Smith also believed in the general truthfulness of the Bible, which means that Jesus also is as almighty as His Father is. Jesus did indeed do many miraculous things (once again if the scriptures tell the story accurately), but many, many times after performing some miracle, Jesus told His disciples that they also could have done those miracles if they had had enough faith. So the only thing standing between the common man and having the power of God is that common man's faith; if that common man or woman had enough faith, s/he would be as almighty as God.

So once again I assert, I see no reason to believe God is really significantly more powerful than any arbitrary person. I believe God is going to preserve some good things into the eternities, but I think it's quite possible that He may have to overcome some of the same obstacles that afflict us in doing so.

The bottom line is that I think it's building a straw man (a straw God?) to say that God clearly had the power to tell Brigham Young that Young was wrong about his racist opinions, and yet He didn't, and that therefore God could not have inspired the LDS Church.