Breaking Away

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_Ceeboo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey SP,

Thanks for taking the time to reply in length (Appreciated)


Very interesting.
Thanks again.

Peace,
Ceeboo
sock puppet wrote:Eventually, we're back to a big, cosmic bang in THE beginning, or the underpinnings of it--a per chance creation.

Theory. It is the best explanation to date that I have come across, including theories of intelligent design/creationism. It had to be so colossal that this earth was one of the things that per chance resulted. But it was just a change of energy and matter into a rearrangement of energy and matter, that have always existed.

Your question points up, in my opinion, the futility of religious explanations for how the cosmos came to be. Following back, one must eventually end with the conclusion that something has always been. At some terminal point in the analysis, something--an intelligence, matter, energy--has always existed. It wasn't created. Getting our head around that concept is difficult because we're used to observing things that have a beginning and an end, like birth and death. We know there is time on either side of those events, but we eventually tire out in our investigation of what came before the beginning, and the beginning before that one, and the one before that, ... . One answer to a question like that always begs the next.

A god is a highly organized concept. So who organized god? And who before the organizer, created the organizer? And so on and so forth. That does not give us an answer.

Energy/matter has always existed, but merely changes form due to physical properties and circumstances. Einstein helped us understand that. Something is "created" only in the sense that it results from changes to something else that preexisted the "created" thing.

Entropy is, IIUC, the principle that everything is in a state of decay. When the big bang occurred, billions and billions and billions of particles of matter exploded across the universe. Our earth is one of them. It is in the process of decaying as compared to its earlier states. The big bang was itself a process of decay.

Realizing that attributing things to a creator per se just begins an infinite regression back in time, to attributing earlier states to one previous creator after another ad infinitum and never coming to an understanding of how it all started--because it never did start, but has always existed is the only answer that will completely satisfy us given our concepts and understandings of time. Realizing that in one form or another, matter/energy has always existed, then how can we account for this seemingly complex earth and the human organism? The answer is looking into the sky, realizing just how vast the universe is and that merely by random there would be sufficient chance that this very planet called earth and this type of organism we call human would exist, as a result of changes in energy and matter. Therein lies the randomness.

Accepting the randomness of it all is difficult for the human ego. We want there to be a purpose, that we are 'special' not merely a random throw off from a big bang. But to date, randomness from a big bang that itself was just a change of energy/matter that has always existed is the best explanation that does not require that one keep inquiring back in time, endlessly. That is, the big bang theory is the best terminal explanation of it all.

Someone will come along and explain to us someday even greater insights. Until then, the big bang is the best explanation that does not merely beg the question.

Disclaimer: These are my amateur understandings and explanations of the big bang theory and Einstein's ideas. My apologies to the scientists reading this for the obvious hack job that I have done here.
_quark
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _quark »

Rambo wrote:
True dat! Plus Mormonism has so much rules.

Why would I embrace another religion with rules. Sure most don't have as much but there are still rules. I want to sin!

to me, it is not the rules but rather the correlation of thought that disgusts me. What a tragedy! This is the work of a scared, egotistical God.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Ceeboo »

honorentheos wrote:Thanks again, Ceeboo.


You are welcome (again) :)

For the record, I'm not particularly aggitated or annoyed by anything you have said. As I stated in the other thread, I thought the quote in this thread is misguided and insensitive, but I doubted you intended it to be offensive so I did not take it that way. That said, I also did not feel any particular need to hide my hand as it were. I disagreed with your view, and I think a Mormon Discussion Board is as good a place as any to do so openly.


Fair enough (Agree to disagree)

Anyway, if you had answered both questions above as "yes", your point would seem clear enough to me and I probably would not have any follow-up questions though we would continue to disagree.


Well, is it to late to change both my answers to "yes" (LOL)

Your answer above did not really clarify the response you gave me earlier. I'm not sure why you would suggest that the comment, "Give a person credit for not falling in the same pit twice" directly reflects you comment above, quoted here for clarity - "Simply put, it is my opinion that a belief in a God/Creator (or no belief in a God/Creator) has no "pit" to climb in or out of (On either side)".

Perhaps you could clarify this for me.


I will try:

The quote was from you, can we agree on that? ("Give a person credit for not falling in the same pit twice")

My point was/is this:

Why are you combining the belief in a God/Creator with, and as an attachment to, a belief in Joseph Smith and or the LDS Church?

Are they not two completely different and indeed separate things?


Thanks.


You are welcome

Considering some of the recent offensive/insensitive things that I may clearly own (Sorry again for my part in that), I will probably opt out of any further questions you may have for me regarding this.

I have tried (perhaps failed) to clarify and if I have not portrayed my opinions at this point, I don't think I will be able to.

Peace,
Ceeboo
_honorentheos
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _honorentheos »

Ceeboo,

I appreciate your answers. If you choose to continue, I would be grateful. If not, I understand.

We certainly agree that the quote was mine, and it was while reflecting on your response that I came to question your views as noted above. It became clear to me that I should see if there was a potential "first pit" in your view as it were, and to understand as best I could what that pit may be.

That said, your response above leaves me with two thoughts.

The first - I am unclear how a person differentiates between the two sides left evident (if not stated) in your belief above. That is, what makes Joseph Smith any different from the person or persons who gave us the biblical accounts of God other than distance or anonymity on the part of the latter? I'd suggest you have your thumb on the scale if you believe there is a substantial difference.

The second thought I have is related to a person coming to a lack of belief in God from Mormonism. In your comment above you suggested that non-belief in God does not necessarily reflect a "pit". Instead, it seems you are most concerned about belief focused on or through a person, especially when this person is Joseph Smith. As stated before, I feel you give the man too much credit for a person who leaves the Mormon faith not finding God in some other religion. If anything, if this were true it seems it would be damaging to any pro-religious postion. If, in fraud, Joseph Smith has made the former Mormon a bit more wary of being taken in another con, then it stands to reason that the religion dodged is a part of that same family or has at least failed to dissuade the wary investigator from his or her doubts. I doubt highly that was an association you intended to create, but none the less - there it is.

I hope you find it in yourself to clarify where I am in error.

Thanks.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Ceeboo
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey honor (Long time no type) :)

honorentheos wrote:Ceeboo,

I appreciate your answers. If you choose to continue, I would be grateful. If not, I understand.


Make you a deal? If I answer this next slew of your questions that question my opinions, can we settle on a mutual undersatnding that they are indeed, and have always been, without question, my opinions?

We certainly agree that the quote was mine,

Great!

and it was while reflecting on your response that I came to question your views as noted above.


This was clear and remains clear.

It became clear to me that I should see if there was a potential "first pit" in your view as it were, and to understand as best I could what that pit may be.


Okay. You are trying to see if there is a potential "first pit" in my view concerning your quote about "pits"?

That said, your response above leaves me with two thoughts.


Two thoughts isn't bad (I'll take it)

The first - I am unclear how a person differentiates between the two sides left evident (if not stated) in your belief above. That is, what makes Joseph Smith any different from the person or persons who gave us the biblical accounts of God other than distance or anonymity on the part of the latter?


Although it is my opinion that there are enormous differences between the examples you submit, when it comes to my opinion and what we have been talking about, there is no difference (This should have been clear when I offered my answers in the last set of questions you had for me.)

I'd suggest you have your thumb on the scale if you believe there is a substantial difference.


Thanks?

The second thought I have is related to a person coming to a lack of belief in God from Mormonism. In your comment above you suggested that non-belief in God does not necessarily reflect a "pit". Instead, it seems you are most concerned about belief focused on or through a person, especially when this person is Joseph Smith.


I am "concerned about belief focused on or through a person, especially when the person is Joseph Smith?" (Whaaaaaaat?)
Is it even possible for our communication to become more bizarre than it is?

As stated before, I feel you give the man too much credit for a person who leaves the Mormon faith not finding God in some other religion.


Perhaps you are right. (I am under no illusion that my opinion is factual)
Perhaps you don't give him enough credit for potentially leading people away from a belief in a God/Creator?

If anything, if this were true it seems it would be damaging to any pro-religious postion. If, in fraud, Joseph Smith has made the former Mormon a bit more wary of being taken in another con


Honor, this is my point/opinion. (You clearly do not agree with my opinion and that is fine by be, but to submit another 5 sets of questions to me, no matter how clever you find them, will not change my opinion)

, then it stands to reason that the religion dodged is a part of that same family or has at least failed to dissuade the wary investigator from his or her doubts. I doubt highly that was an association you intended to create, but none the less - there it is.


Cool!
A creation (That's me, Ceeboo) who was created by the Creator has created an association that he did not intend to create.


I hope you find it in yourself to clarify where I am in error.


I don't recall ever suggesting you were "in error". (Do you?)

I hope you find it in yourself to refrain from an additional set of questions to question my opinions.

Thanks.


For the 4th time, you are very welcome. :)

Peace,
an exhausted Ceeboo
Last edited by Guest on Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
_why me
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _why me »

Ceeboo wrote:
My experience of "Mormonism" is mostly from message boards (LDS.Net, CAF, MDD, MDB) and perhaps (?) this is a very narrow, slanted, and very poor sample to use when measuring these things as a whole.

Peace,
Ceeboo


Thus, your problem. It would be the same for me if I hung out on catholic boards both pro and negative of catholicism where passions run deep. The reality is much different when we deal with people of flesh and bone and not 'humanoid' cyber people as myself :=).
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_cafe crema
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _cafe crema »

sock puppet wrote:LDST, these questions are asked respectfully:

1-do you know if there is in fact a Santa Claus?

2-do you know if there is in fact an Easter Bunny?

What makes the question of the existence of diety any different? There is no credible evidence of any of the three.


Different because neither the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus promise to keep the party going, in new and exciting ways after we die?
_cafe crema
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _cafe crema »

why me wrote:
Rambo wrote:I was thinking of making a post just like this. It is very interesting that most exmormons become agnostic or atheist. I think you hit the nail on the head. Leaving Mormonism taught me to be sceptical of everything.


Once a person no longer believes in Mormonism it is rather difficult to believe in any other christian church. Most churches come up short with the plan of salvation and more importantly, they seem more worldly in doctrine. They just don't measure up to Mormonism. Thus, the problem.


So why do you supposedly attend a Catholic church?
_Drifting
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _Drifting »

café crema wrote:
sock puppet wrote:LDST, these questions are asked respectfully:

1-do you know if there is in fact a Santa Claus?

2-do you know if there is in fact an Easter Bunny?

What makes the question of the existence of diety any different? There is no credible evidence of any of the three.


Different because neither the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus promise to keep the party going, in new and exciting ways after we die?


Hang on, to be fair Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny deliver on their promises (as does the tooth fairy). Dieties are generally hit and miss.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_sock puppet
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Re: Breaking Away

Post by _sock puppet »

café crema wrote:
sock puppet wrote:LDST, these questions are asked respectfully:

1-do you know if there is in fact a Santa Claus?

2-do you know if there is in fact an Easter Bunny?

What makes the question of the existence of diety any different? There is no credible evidence of any of the three.


Different because neither the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus promise to keep the party going, in new and exciting ways after we die?

You mean after I die there will be no Christmas or Easter celebrations on this earth? My death will mean that much?
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