Let's see where we can get with this

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

Darth J wrote:Stemelbow, here is the beginning, middle, and end of your one and only position:

The Church is true!!!


I always had envisioned all these folks sitting around chanting “DJ…chuh chuh…DJ..chuh chuh…DJ” when you post around these parts. They come clanging around relying on your points without paying attention to them sometimes. Anyway, that’s not really my only position. That was cute though. Thank ya.

The Church is true!!!


Uh oh, sumpin went haywire with DJ. Stuck on….there we go. Got him going again. Carry on.

Damn it! Until this very moment, I had not considered the possibility that "the Lord" was a Joseph Smith sock puppet!


Sometimes, when you realize the endless possibilities that lay out before you you start to embrace life a little more. Man, I wish the best for you.

For those who made it past a third-grade reading level


That’s me (barely). I’m in.

, let's review the condition precedent that the Lord gives in D&C 132 for being justified:

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.


In case we are still missing the point that the Lord justifies someone by obedience to his law---rather than the Lord just looks the other way---

D&C 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;


So you with me now? So we clear that Joseph Smith didn’t have the particular little rules you’ve put out for us to consider pre-1843?

No, an evangelical has never told you this, because that conclusion would be based on the premise that God really communicated with Joseph Smith.


Oh yeah?

That's right. The Doctrine and Covenants unequivocally and consistently teaches that Joseph Smith can do whatever the hell he wants, despite a revelation addressed specifically to him in which he is told to obey what he is about to be told.


Does not.

Stemelbow, further to the point that the D&C stands for the proposition that Joseph Smith can do whatever he wants, can you explain this for me?

D&C 3

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.

6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—

8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble.

9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.

10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;

11 Except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.


No can do, bub. Sounds like you got my position all mixed up in your pretty little head again. We may have to start from scratch…no not that Scratch character here. In fact we may need to get you completely separated from him before we proceed. You in?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

sock puppet wrote:So everything that is tempting or desirable is unhealthy?

Heaven forbid, I shall stop eating peaches. I find them tempting and desirable. But now I know that such is the test for unhealthy things, at least so says stemelbow.


you should have just said, "healthy in moderation" and we'd all be sqaure.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Buffalo »

stemelbow wrote:
So you with me now? So we clear that Joseph Smith didn’t have the particular little rules you’ve put out for us to consider pre-1843?


How did Joseph Smith even know to practice polygamy, Stem? Was it his idea?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

Alright, I've been inundated for the day. See ya all later.

Starting to not keep who said what and when all straight. Peace to the lot of ya, even to that nasty Schreech fella.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _sock puppet »

stemelbow wrote:
sock puppet wrote:So everything that is tempting or desirable is unhealthy?

Heaven forbid, I shall stop eating peaches. I find them tempting and desirable. But now I know that such is the test for unhealthy things, at least so says stemelbow.


you should have just said, "healthy in moderation" and we'd all be sqaure.

My coffee intake is moderate compared to those that have 128 oz. a day.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

Buffalo wrote:How did Joseph Smith even know to practice polygamy, Stem? Was it his idea?


I guess I got one more in me. I suppose if you say his idea here originated with his peni...

Just kidding. I'll get back another time when I'm more seriously bent and answer all these questions that just seem silly to me now (oh don't be offended. Attribute it to my illiteracy or something).
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Buffalo »

stemelbow wrote:
Buffalo wrote:How did Joseph Smith even know to practice polygamy, Stem? Was it his idea?


I guess I got one more in me. I suppose if you say his idea here originated with his peni...

Just kidding. I'll get back another time when I'm more seriously bent and answer all these questions that just seem silly to me now (oh don't be offended. Attribute it to my illiteracy or something).


If you think Joseph was a real prophet, I don't see why you'd also think it was a silly question.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_schreech
_Emeritus
Posts: 2470
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _schreech »

stemelbow wrote:...


ETA - That was very mean of me...i apologize for typing the things i was actually thinking.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Darth J »

Stemelbow:

1. Joseph Smith could not have been practicing polygamy in accordance with the Lord's commands prior to 1843, because he had not yet received the revelation giving him the terms and conditions. You are not helping him by emphasizing this obvious fact. You are digging him in deeper.

2. Joseph Smith did not follow the conditions the Lord requires for plural marriage after he purportedly received the revelation we know as D&C 132.

3. Taking a single clause from one verse in D&C 132 out of context to suggest that Joseph Smith would be "justified in his transgressions" is an abysmally unreasonable reading of that verse. It is irreconcilable with the preceding verse, with rest of that section, the rest of the Doctrine and Covenants, and certain parts of the faith-promoting narrative (i.e., Joseph Smith temporarily lost the power to translate the golden plates because he disobeyed the Lord). It also requires D&C 3 and D&C 121 to be false when those sections unequivocally state that even a person who is called of God and ordained to the priesthood will lose their authority and power if they sin.

4. If the claims of fact necessary for the faith-promoting narrative to be true can be falsified, then necessarily the Church can be falsified, because the foundational claims required for the Church to be true can be disproved.
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Darth J wrote:
If D&C 132 represents an eternal law that was the basis for ancient patriarchs and prophets to have been justified in plural marriage (which it is, under D&C 132's own terms), why would we assume that the hypothetical commandment to practice polygamy---which nobody has produced---prior to 1843 would have different terms and conditions than in D&C 132?

Why would Joseph Smith's inquiry about the justification for plural marriage be the impetus for the revelation canonized as D&C 132, if Joseph Smith had been commanded to practice polygamy prior to that time?


I am not convinced that Joseph was commanded to practice polygamy with Fanny but I believe that there is an argument to be made he was. Have you read Don Bradly's essay "Mormon Polygamy before Nauvoo"? Here is a link where much of it can be read. http://www.amazon.com/Persistence-Polygamy-Joseph-Origins-ebook/dp/B004GNEDIM#reader_B004GNEDIM

My response regarding it being polygamy was meant to offer a TBM view which defends Joseph against adultery but leaves unanswered your question regarding authority and the proper way to practice plural marriage per D&C 132. The date that D&C 132 was known to Joseph Smith understandably does not seem all that important to the faithful. Regardless of whether or not he understood the requirements of D&C 132 when he knew Fanny or he found out later on, he still seems to have not applied it to the way he practiced plural marriage at any time. Being able to prove he both knew the requirements and had the authority to seal at the time he was out in the barn with Fanny only makes him more guilty of not following his own revelation.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Post Reply