Drilldown #1: TBMs, details re your spiritual experience

[_consiglieri]

I suppose it's possible, however, that I should be paying more attention to the odd things I hear every once in a while in the dead of silence.

Hello darkness, my old friend . . .

[_Drifting]

I will share a story but it's not mine (although I have a walk on part in it)

I was inactive and was living with my nevermo girlfriend.

One day we went to the beach.
Whilst on the beach she turned to me and said that she'd just seen her Grandmother walking down the beach.

Let me say at this point that it was a pleasant day but not particularly hot or sunny. We had a picnic but that didn't contain either mushrooms or alcohol.

An hour or two later when we got home, she gets a phone call from her Dad telling her that her Grandmother had died in the last couple of hours.

I've never had an experience like this personally.
I cannot think of any reasonable explanation other than she was completely in tune with her Grandmother. Who in turn chose to let her Granddaughter see her on her journey to wherever.

It could be a coincidence of my girlfriend picturing her in her minds eye at coincidentally the same time as she passed on, but I struggle to calculate the odds of that. But I accept it's a possibility, if an unreasonable one to my thinking.

I have never shared this story with anyone, so thank you Liz for opening a door.
My girlfriend, who had the experience, and I never discussed it afterwards. We just accepted it had happened.

[_Some Schmo]

Okay, here is my story.

On my mission, my companion decided that we should pray for a week for ministering angels to prepare two specific streets for us to tract. When the week was up, we would tract those streets and find someone to baptize. He said this technique was especially powerful and it had worked for someone else he knew. I thought it sounded good so we did it.

After a week of praying with every ounce of faith we had, we tracted the street. At one door, a disabled woman and a man answered. The woman looked at us and said that she already talked to two men from our church two days earlier.

I instantly thought that there is no way that happened because this is our area and no other missionaries should be in it. We owned this part of town and the bike elders sure as heck didn't huff it all the way up here to poach on our turf.

I thought that she must have confused some Jehovah's Witnesses knocking doors with missionaries from our church. Before I had a chance to respond, the woman said "they left a book for me to read, but I'm really not interested so I'll give it back to you." The man then went and retrieved a soft cover copy of the Book of Mormon like the ones we passed out as missionaries.

I realized then that Jehovah's Witnesses don't pass out copies of the Book of Mormon so I started quizzing her about these two missionaries. I asked "What did they look like?" "They were both short, had very blond hair, and dressed just like you two (white shirt, tie, dark slacks) but they didn't have name tags."

No missionaries in our area even remotely matched that description, especially the lack of name tags. I responded "are you sure they didn't have name tags?" "Yes, I'm sure," she said.

She politely declined our invitation to hear the discussions and we left. I have always interpreted that experience as God fulfilling our prayers by sending his ministering angels to the people on that street in advance of our visit, but the people were so hard-hearted that they even rejected them.

Now that story is just a big question mark. I have no idea what happened there, although I kind of doubt God sent his ministering angels to that woman.

My guess is that she had the Book of Mormon in her possession for a while (for whatever reason... it came in thrown into a garage sale box of old books? Who knows?), didn't want it but didn't like the idea of throwing it out, either, and made up the story just to return it.

Anyway, yeah, I think she was BSing you. Easiest explanation.

[_Some Schmo]

It could be a coincidence of my girlfriend picturing her in her minds eye at coincidentally the same time as she passed on, but I struggle to calculate the odds of that. But I accept it's a possibility, if an unreasonable one to my thinking.

We always tend to focus on the hits and dismiss the misses. Would your girlfriend even remember this incident had her grandma not died in close proximity to the event? I suspect not.

[_Drifting]

It could be a coincidence of my girlfriend picturing her in her minds eye at coincidentally the same time as she passed on, but I struggle to calculate the odds of that. But I accept it's a possibility, if an unreasonable one to my thinking.

We always tend to focus on the hits and dismiss the misses. Would your girlfriend even remember this incident had her grandma not died in close proximity to the event? I suspect not.

I think that's a fair point, albeit hypothetical in nature (meaning I can't answer it with anything concrete). I guess if her Grandmother had been alive and well when it happened I would be inclined to go with 'mind playing tricks on the eyes' explanation.

[_RockSlider]

The follower is the ordinance worker in the back of the endowment room. Since the ordinance workers are not the proxies, it is not needful for them to concentrate on the presentation of the endowment. The follower is the “voice” in the prayer circle. Part of his training for this position is instruction that they should seek the spirit to find what the needs of that company might be.

I took this very literally and would spend the time, in the darkened room, leading up to the circle in deep prayer and concentration, listening for direction. On a few occasions during the presentation the lights are turned up and the follower does his part for a few moments.

One day it occurred to me that anyone watching me would have thought I was dead asleep. As I would end up super relaxed, without motion and yet my mind was totally active, in fact it would seem, the only part of me functioning. I realized that I was actually putting myself into a meditative state.

I found that in my personal prayers, late at night, when I took the time, I could readily repeat that meditative state. This is where I had my powerful spiritual experiences. Not just one or two, but repeatable, if I only spent the time to achieve the meditative state. This was in my quest to learn of personal revelation, on what I hoped was a path to my calling and election. I pursued it often, both in and out of the temple.

I have had a couple of dreams with some visual, but these never compared to the intensity of some of my prayers. I would concentrate on conversation, being careful to separate my voice from the other. Often times with my voice spoken, out loud, and more time listening than asking/speaking. The other voices were always just thoughts in my mind – but the description of “still small voice” does fit. What is the hardest part and takes the time, is to shut down your thoughts, so as to hear the voice.

I say voices because the sensed personality of the other individual would sometimes differ, from prayer to prayer. For example, several times, I understood it to be my grandfather. Now along with these “voices” would come the much debated “burning in the breast”. In my case, this would manifest itself as uncontrollable weeping, of joy, as something was understood, or shared that hit deeply that unique human condition that brings tears of joy and great emotion.

All of my deeply held spiritual experiences happened in my mind and in my breast during meditative prayer.

[_Morley]

.... What is the hardest part and takes the time, is to shut down your thoughts, so as to hear the voice. .... Now along with these “voices” would come the much debated “burning in the breast”. In my case, this would manifest itself as uncontrollable weeping, of joy, as something was understood, or shared that hit deeply that unique human condition that brings tears of joy and great emotion. .... All of my deeply held spiritual experiences happened in my mind and in my breast during meditative prayer.

Looks similar to the phenomena that I've experienced in the practice of Kundalini or Kriya yoga. Though 'voices' aren't typically part of that experience, intense joy and a feeling of oneness with God and/or the universe are. There too, the 'burning in the breast' is more of a sense of intense energy or unbounded joy centered around the spine. I could never decide if this was a biologically/neurologically induced state or a tentative grasp of the divine. Thanks for sharing this, Rock.

[_sock puppet]

The follower is the ordinance worker in the back of the endowment room. Since the ordinance workers are not the proxies, it is not needful for them to concentrate on the presentation of the endowment. The follower is the “voice” in the prayer circle. Part of his training for this position is instruction that they should seek the spirit to find what the needs of that company might be.

I took this very literally and would spend the time, in the darkened room, leading up to the circle in deep prayer and concentration, listening for direction. On a few occasions during the presentation the lights are turned up and the follower does his part for a few moments.

One day it occurred to me that anyone watching me would have thought I was dead asleep. As I would end up super relaxed, without motion and yet my mind was totally active, in fact it would seem, the only part of me functioning. I realized that I was actually putting myself into a meditative state.

I found that in my personal prayers, late at night, when I took the time, I could readily repeat that meditative state. This is where I had my powerful spiritual experiences. Not just one or two, but repeatable, if I only spent the time to achieve the meditative state. This was in my quest to learn of personal revelation, on what I hoped was a path to my calling and election. I pursued it often, both in and out of the temple.

I have had a couple of dreams with some visual, but these never compared to the intensity of some of my prayers. I would concentrate on conversation, being careful to separate my voice from the other. Often times with my voice spoken, out loud, and more time listening than asking/speaking. The other voices were always just thoughts in my mind – but the description of “still small voice” does fit. What is the hardest part and takes the time, is to shut down your thoughts, so as to hear the voice.

I say voices because the sensed personality of the other individual would sometimes differ, from prayer to prayer. For example, several times, I understood it to be my grandfather. Now along with these “voices” would come the much debated “burning in the breast”. In my case, this would manifest itself as uncontrollable weeping, of joy, as something was understood, or shared that hit deeply that unique human condition that brings tears of joy and great emotion.

All of my deeply held spiritual experiences happened in my mind and in my breast during meditative prayer.

Thanks, Rock. I've underlined those parts that I find most concrete about your experiences. Thanks.

[_RockSlider]

Looks similar to the phenomena that I've experienced in the practice of Kundalini or Kriya yoga. Though 'voices' aren't typically part of that experience, intense joy and a feeling of oneness with God and/or the universe are. There too, the 'burning in the breast' is more of a sense of intense energy or unbounded joy centered around the spine. I could never decide if this was a biologically/neurologically induced state or a tentative grasp of the divine. Thanks for sharing this, Rock.

I'm very much with Morley at this point in time, I believe we are describing a very similar phenomenon, of which I cannot decide the actors (I swing back and forth on this), but indeed is a very desirable result.

[_Panopticon]

I will relate an experience about foreknowledge. It didn't happen to me. It happened to my mother, who is the most truthful person I know. Perhaps she rewrote her memory as discussed earlier in the thread. At least that is my working theory. Here it goes.

I was about 5 years old. My mother was playing with me in the living room when the phone rang. My mother says that in the space of time before picking up the phone she had an extremely strong impression that my grandfather (her father) had had an affair and that the phone call was to tell her about it.

In order to understand the significance of this, you have to know my grandfather. He was a TBM and about the nicest guy you would ever meet. All of his children and grandchildren adored him. What he did was completely out of character and a real shock to everyone that knew him. My mother said she was astounded by the impression because it was so ridiculous. She said that there was absolutely no evidence to suggest it. The affair had occurred years before, out of state, and he had acted completely normally to his family in the interim. Eventually, however, feelings of guilt prompted him to confess.

The impression turned out to be accurate, and my grandmother was indeed calling to let my mom know.

He was exed and my grandmother stayed with him. He was eventually rebaptized and died a TBM.

So what happened? Did my mom get a supernatural impression to prepare her for the shock of the revelation? She believes that. Did the shock cause her to rewrite her memory? Was her memory starting to fade with time? Who knows.

My wife seems to have similar impressions that almost border on the supernatural. In her case, however, I think she is very adept at reading body language and she is great at inductive reasoning.

In my case, I am one of those non-spiritual clods that couldn't get a spiritual experience if my life depended on it. I've wanted to try psilocybin just to experience what it might be like.

It isn't for lack of trying. I have tried praying all night, fasting for days, reading the scriptures, living the gospel as completely as I can. After thousands of hours of prayer, scripture study, missionary work, over 30+ years, I am convinced beyond doubt that if God does exist, he doesn't give a crap about me. I must be the biggest idiot in the world to keep it up for so long when it obviously wasn't going anywhere. That's the definition of insanity, right???

Why some people can receive spiritual experiences effortlessly (or with little effort) is beyond me.