Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Hmmm...when I think of the word "faith", I automatically think of the word "trust".

DrW wrote:

Hoops,
Hoops,
In case you have not yet figured it out (after all of our delightful exchanges on the subject), I place very little value on faith (unfounded belief).

Faith is a poor substitute for knowledge. This is especially true considering that it takes so little additional effort to go from unfounded belief, to belief based on physical evidence, to logical and reasoned interpretation of that evidence - resulting in real knowledge.

Best of all, no magic is required.


I disagree with this, Dr W. I think that your "substitue for knowledge" comment points toward empirical evidence. I could be wrong, but having encountered what I think are the most rigorous challenges put forth by highly intelligent skeptics for a number of years (not here, it simply doesn't exist on MDB), I think I know it when I see it. :-)

When I think in terms of spirituality, having faith and all of that, I think that what we're actually talking about is the human need for love and to be loved. In other words, a sense of emotional connectedness to another human being or in this case, a deity. Our very survival depends on a sense of emotional connectedness and you can credit evolution for that or a Creator for the development of our brain, whichever you choose.

Further, I think that our perceived emotional connectedness has everything to do with intuition. We intuit that we are loved, that someone or some deity loves us and that grounds the sense of connectedness within our brain and our "emotional heart".

In a romantic human relationship that, let's say, leads to marriage or life long partnership, we have faith that the other person loves us. We perceive "signals" through their actions, their appearance, that signal "love" for us.

In much the same way, I think that religious or spiritual relationships or perceived bonds with a deity are based on the same conditions. We perceive "signals" in our lives that something greater than ourselves is either responsible for our existence or for the conditions of our lives be they positive or negative.

Empirical evidence for love is no more or less reliable in the human relationship than it is in the human:deity relationship and both of those hinge on what we perceive as acts of reciprocity.

You can say that there is no empirical evidence for a God being and you are right in that regard. However, I submit to you, that the emotional bonds that we seek out with other human beings (beings for whom there is empirical evidence), that weigh heavily in our survival as a race, are no more reliable since they can be swept away by hidden and then, exposed deceit on the part of other human beings in the blink of an eye.

You can pose the question "Why does God insist on tricking us?" but again, I submit to you that human beings who claim and appear to love us also insist on tricking us.

Both relationships in my view, require a leap of faith whether it is a leap of faith in another human being or a perceived deity.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hola,

I think the best way a Bishop could approach an apostate couple is to simply tell them they're loved, valued, and sometimes it's best to just take things with a grain of salt. Then, he ought to point out the benefits of friends, community, family, structure, etc... And let the couple know they'll be loved and considered a value-added piece of the community's pie, and they're more than welcome to be a part of their family/community.

I think there'd be a lot more happiness on both sides if this kind of attitude could happen.

VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Hoops
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Hoops »

DrW wrote: - resulting in real knowledge..

WHich is meaningless.

You have no reason to believe that the conclusions you've drawn from experimentation, logic, reason, and any other device you choose, actually represents "real knowledge".

And, for what it's worth, i reject your representation of faith. You say this alot, are corrected, and yet you still cling to it. Point being, you're world view requires the very same kind of faith you so blithely reject.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Hoops wrote:
DrW wrote: - resulting in real knowledge..

WHich is meaningless.

You have no reason to believe that the conclusions you've drawn from experimentation, logic, reason, and any other device you choose, actually represents "real knowledge".

And, for what it's worth, i reject your representation of faith. You say this a lot, are corrected, and yet you still cling to it. Point being, you're world view requires the very same kind of faith you so blithely reject.


You know, this just jumped into my mind when reading your last sentence. Doesn't faith in science depend on faith in continuing revelation?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ceeboo
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Ceeboo »

mikwut wrote:Faith is a choice, it is an attitude and a predisposition towards reality revealing itself to us. It is oriented commitment towards reality. Faith can consist of hope, love and a trust towards a reality that we commit ourselves to. It seeks understanding within a fiduciary framework. Its basis (at least in a Christina understanding) is grace and our experience as whole persons in all the complexities and movements of reality upon us as persons.

Tangential to faith and not to be misunderstood as synonymous with it is belief, which is not a choice. Our propositions are forced on our minds by evidence, we cannot choose to believe the moon is made out of cheese. We cannot choose for the historical and propositional beliefs of the Mormon church to be factual when the evidence presents them as not. But, faith is NOT simple banal facticity - faith is a trusting orientation towards reality.

Mormonism unfortunately has a disproportionate amount of propositional beliefs that often get confused with faith, 'J.S. saw god in a wooded area' is a proposition that often within Mormonism improperly defines one's faith, but it is a belief not faith. Often when Mormons leave the church they keep this propositional understanding of faith and don't distinguish between faith and belief. When someone comes to a factual determination that the historicity of the Mormon church is not as they previously were taught or understood - faith isn't the issue - propositional facts are. I didn't leave my "faith" when I left Mormonism, I left certain beliefs that were no longer tenable for me based on the evidence.

This is also why the scientism you see so clearly in DrW's posts are often found in former Mormons, his statements - "Faith is a poor substitute for knowledge. This is especially true considering that it takes so little additional effort to go from unfounded belief, to belief based on physical evidence, to logical and reasoned interpretation of that evidence - resulting in real knowledge. Best of all, no magic is required." This makes no sense when faith is properly oriented and understood. It is simply an admission (tacitly) by DrW that he has no understanding of faith proper, he only understands beliefs. That's OK, because part of faith is a committed sense towards reality as it discloses itself to us and empirical reality is part of reality.

Faith is more closely related to judgment and discernment than it is to knowledge - it is more concerned with understanding than with putting facts in a bag - that we all do based on our current experience, education and knowledge but what we do with our facts in a bag (beliefs that are not chosen) is closer to what faith is.

my best, mikwut


Hi mikwut,

As can been found with most (perhaps all?) of the contributions that you share on this board, this one is also brilliant, spot on, and loaded with explosive worth and several degrees of deep value.

I Have been and remain a huge mikwut fan.

Always a sincere pleasure to read you. :)

Peace,
Ceeboo
_Chap
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Chap »

mikwut wrote:Faith is a choice, it is an attitude and a predisposition towards reality revealing itself to us. It is oriented commitment towards reality. Faith can consist of hope, love and a trust towards a reality that we commit ourselves to. It seeks understanding within a fiduciary framework. Its basis (at least in a Christina understanding) is grace and our experience as whole persons in all the complexities and movements of reality upon us as persons.

Tangential to faith and not to be misunderstood as synonymous with it is belief, which is not a choice. Our propositions are forced on our minds by evidence, we cannot choose to believe the moon is made out of cheese. We cannot choose for the historical and propositional beliefs of the Mormon church to be factual when the evidence presents them as not. But, faith is NOT simple banal facticity - faith is a trusting orientation towards reality.


From experience of this board, I think mikwut may be correct in suggesting that the CoJCoLDS tends not to make a strong distinction between faith and belief, and he is probably right in suggesting that other varieties of theist get a lot more work and value out of a distinction along the general lines he sketches.

It seems to me, however, that mikwut's post might be taken to suggest that the attitude he calls 'faith' only has a reality in a religious context.

I'd like to say the opposite. As a human being, sure only of my own personhood, I daily make the leap of faith by conferring personhood on what I would otherwise have to regard as the mere walking talking bipedal meat machines I encounter in my home, at work, and elsewhere. I commit myself to that atttitude of hope, trust, and often at least the beginnings of love, and to my delight I usually receive a response that seems to justify my faith in the other, and that confirms my own personhood in return. I do indeed '[seek] understanding within a fiduciary framework.'

Those who fail to find the courage to make this leap of faith and trust in daily life are so distant from the shared experience of the rest of us that we see them as damaged, perhaps not even fully human.

Now a theist of the Christian sort exemplified by mikwut seems to me to be piggy-backing on this real and very basic human experience the claim that this attitude of trusting commitment towards other people should also be our attitude to a posited being with whom no interaction in a normal human mode seems possible. My refusal of an act of religious faith does not however mean I have no idea what faith is; it just means I do not see any reason to think that there is a non-human personal reality out there to exercise faith on - and in fact I think there is some reason to think there is none.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Hoops
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Hoops »

Did anyone else have to look up facticity?
_Hoops
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Hoops »

Ceeboo wrote:
Hi mikwut,

As can been found with most (perhaps all?) of the contributions that you share on this board, this one is also brilliant, spot on, and loaded with explosive worth and several degrees of deep value.

I Have been and remain a huge mikwut fan.

Always a sincere pleasure to read you. :)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo and I rarely agree on anything - just yesterday I challenged him to a game of hoops to settle some old scores, he won - but I agree with him here. Mikwut is, indeed, a valuable contributor here. (as are lots of others)
_mikwut
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Chap,

You responded to my post as such,

From experience of this board, I think mikwut may be correct in suggesting that the CoJCoLDS tends not to make a strong distinction between faith and belief, and he is probably right in suggesting that other varieties of theist get a lot more work and value out of a distinction along the general lines he sketches.

It seems to me, however, that mikwut's post might be taken to suggest that the attitude he calls 'faith' only has a reality in a religious context.

I'd like to say the opposite. As a human being, sure only of my own personhood, I daily make the leap of faith by conferring personhood on what I would otherwise have to regard as the mere walking talking bipedal meat machines I encounter in my home, at work, and elsewhere. I commit myself to that atttitude of hope, trust, and often at least the beginnings of love, and to my delight I usually receive a response that seems to justify my faith in the other, and that confirms my own personhood in return. I do indeed '[seek] understanding within a fiduciary framework.'

Those who fail to find the courage to make this leap of faith and trust in daily life are so distant from the shared experience of the rest of us that we see them as damaged, perhaps not even fully human.

Now a theist of the Christian sort exemplified by mikwut seems to me to be piggy-backing on this real and very basic human experience the claim that this attitude of trusting commitment towards other people should also be our attitude to a posited being with whom no interaction in a normal human mode seems possible. My refusal of an act of religious faith does not however mean I have no idea what faith is; it just means I do not see any reason to think that there is a non-human personal reality out there to exercise faith on - and in fact I think there is some reason to think there is none.


I am pleased to say that we agree in principal and I do not find a stark contrast to disagree with you on. That pleases me a great deal given our past discussions.

We simply have a different orientation or attitude towards reality, which shouldn't be surprising or unexpected. I would just offer comment on one part of your response when you said:

My refusal of an act of religious faith does not however mean I have no idea what faith is; it just means I do not see any reason to think that there is a non-human personal reality out there to exercise faith on - and in fact I think there is some reason to think there is none.


I agree. All a theist should properly expect in dialogue or respectful interaction in real life is respect. I have had the experience of reality and of grace and of transcendence. Most people experience love and kindness and support toward growth from their parents growing up. Some, perhaps many, do not. They as you say, do not see any reason to think that love is real and from their own experience have reason to even think there is no such thing as love. But, I have different life experiences to know otherwise. How I express that can sometimes offend and other times offer respect, the latter is my intention. But, asking for the same in return is I believe reasonable.

my best, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Ceeboo
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey Hoops (Hope you and yours had a spledid Thanksgiving)

Hoops wrote:
Ceeboo and I rarely agree on anything


Surely, you jest! :)

- just yesterday I challenged him to a game of hoops to settle some old scores, he won


Yes, hindsight being 20/20, I feel really bad that I dominated you like that if front of your kids. (Sorry)

At least they got to see you score one time! (Still can't believe that went in) :)

- but I agree with him here. Mikwut is, indeed, a valuable contributor here. (as are lots of others)


Yes, well said.

Peace,
Ceeboo
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