The Imperfect God

[_MrStakhanovite]

Thanks Blixa. I hope they come because I would really like to read/learn more.

by the way: I meant "inadvertently makes things worse part of the time."

Gnostic is really a term used to group together a wide and diverse group of religious traditions, similar to how Christianity can be used to group together the Coptic Church, Dutch Reform Church, and Jehovah Witnesses.

It’s hard to gather what it was exactly many Gnostics believed, since most of what we gather from them is from their detractors. While a few Gnostic texts survived, these groups thrived on the whole Mystery Cult that was so popular in Greco-Roman period, so it’s hard to extract their beliefs from what texts remain.

The common thread that links all these groups together is a dualistic belief, where the world and all that is material is evil, and must be overcome by a higher good that somehow transcends that which is material. One example of this dualism is seeing the god of the Hebrew Bible as an evil deity, and the god of the new testament as a good diety that is diametrically opposed to the evil deity.

[_quark]

Mr Stak. I'm so glad you arrived.

To the first question: I see many people essentially worshipping celebrities, who have known faults. I do it too. Why do people do this? I think it can be meaningful. Project this same idea to the unseen world and there you go.

To the next question: maybe God is still trying to build the afterlife as we speak. It isn't easy. Maybe we will have to help when we get there. Yeah so heaven isn't secure yet. Oh well. Just because it isn't certain bliss doesn't make it not true.

[_quark]

A book , The Eternal Smile by Par Lagerkvist presents this idea directly and with some beauty.

Thanks. It's on hold!

[_Nightlion]

Blixa, I do not want to obstruct any fishing for different perspectives. I think your suggestion to look at qnostic views makes sense. I am partial to orthodox lines of thought but I like to question them and their interpretations. I do not think that considering Gnostic thought a bad thing. It at least presents reason to reflect that Christain thoughts about God are not an unchanging all knowing answer. It might be a reminder that Christian thoughts are a result of humans thinking about questions and puzzles.

Actually some people express an enthusiasm about Gnostic ideas that I am at a loss to appreciate. Perhaps some orthodox talk about theism make God so remote and all powerful that any alternative has some attraction.

When I was first introduced to Gnosticism as an undergrad, though an atheist and not directly interested, I found such thinking odd but interesting. I don't know how I'd judge it now that I'm still an atheist, but much more wholeheartedly interested in religious narrative. I suppose in this post I was reminding myself, as well as quark, about things to read up on...

I read the Nag Hammadi back in the day only to divide what I thought was true from what I thought was false. Lately, however, everything coming to me now sparks a gnostic bent glanced off the Restoration scripture, of my own interpretation. Interesting that THEIR Sophia is a male demigod. I wrote off Gnosticism as mostly false a sort of fable of Christianity.

We can see today a fable has developed around the Restoration by those who actually are inexperienced and who fail to come to know the truth. How ironic. I might have to take another look at Gnosticism to see if my new perspectives can utilize anything I missed before.

[_bcspace]

What if bad stuff happened to people simply because God did not have the power to help them? What if he/she desperately wanted to help, often tries to help, sometimes inadvertently makes things worse, but in the end, cannot do it all?

Am I alone in thinking this God would be more loving and empathetic than the popular God of today? I can relate to and look forward to meeting this God.

God does not generally have the power to stop bad stuff from happening because such destroys agency and eliminates necessary consequences. If it's part of a plan, such as a covenant made (and kept) which furthers the plan, then He will stretch forth His hand.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Mr Stak. I'm so glad you arrived. .

I aim to please.

To the first question: I see many people essentially worshipping celebrities, who have known faults. I do it too. Why do people do this? I think it can be meaningful. Project this same idea to the unseen world and there you go.

Hero worship is usually about holding up some person as the paragon example of how one should be, and celebrity worship is generally considered a bad thing, because the object of veneration (Alan Rickman for example) is flawed, or not worthy of such devotion.

Now devotion to some higher principle or idea is one thing, but what idea or ideal do you have in mind and why call it God?

To the next question: maybe God is still trying to build the afterlife as we speak. It isn't easy. Maybe we will have to help when we get there. Yeah so heaven isn't secure yet. Oh well. Just because it isn't certain bliss doesn't make it not true.

Sure, but how did you come to know this? I understand this was meant as a counter example, but how and why do you attribute this to God?

[_MrStakhanovite]

God does not generally have the power to stop bad stuff from happening because such destroys agency and eliminates necessary consequences.

This is manifestly false. Of all the possible worlds God had to choose from, God could have picked the world where every agent freely chose to do the right thing.


ETA- I’m not saying this for Space’s edification, I just wanted to let it out there that the Free Will Defense for the problem of Evil isn’t the best defense.

[_MrStakhanovite]

We can see today a fable has developed around the Restoration by those who actually are inexperienced and who fail to come to know the truth. How ironic. I might have to take another look at Gnosticism to see if my new perspectives can utilize anything I missed before.

Keep in mind Nightlion, that the Nag Hammadi texts should be looked as kind of a library. You don’t know what sort of hidden meanings Gnostics put into the text, nor what they thought of them.

[_quark]

Mr Stak and the usually difficult questions! It's just like having a discussion with Dr Shades. Such difficult questions and valid points.

I need some time on this!

[_quark]

Ok, Mr Stak. I put some thought to this while putting my kids to bed.

So, let's discuss the idea is that a perfect being is worthy of worship and an imperfect being is not necessarily worthy of it. The reason the imperfect being is not worthy of worship is because we might be inspired by a faulty characteristic like greed, right? So, I guess I'm leaning more toward the adoration of a hero type of worship. Anyway, I'm not understanding why a perfected soul deserves worship more than an imperfected one. The perfected soul is coasting along while the imperfect one has an uphill battle.

Ok, you mention Jehovah's Witness as a religion with Gnostic influence. That is a big surprise.

I'm going out on a limb to make a case for the Mormon Church, which I think is closer to Gnosticism (what little I know about it) than any other major Christian theology around. Of course you know I'm thinking about BY's Adam-God theory, Joseph Smith's Abraham-God theory, the general idea of ascension of gods per the gradual process of deification.