Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

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_Runtu
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:But this, as you should know if you'd studied the issue, has problems of its own, including the fact that it is a third hand account having been reported as coming from Lyon's daughter, not Lyon herself, and that the definition of the term "daughter" within this context could be quite problematic, and not at all straightforward.


I will just quote that well-known anti-Mormon, Brian Hales:

Josephine Rosetta Lyon – Biological Daughter of Joseph Smith?

Todd Compton asserted that Joseph Smith practiced sexual polyandry with Sylvia Sessions Lyon (see In Sacred Loneliness, 178-86). Sylvia's daughter, Josephine Rosetta Lyon, signed the following statement in 1915:

Just prior to my mother’s death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith... [23]

All researchers do not agree this statement clearly declares Josephine to be the biological daughter of the Prophet.[24] It is true that words reflect some ambiguity and could possibly be interpreted to mean that Josephine was to be Joseph Smith’s daughter only in eternity, without implying an actual paternal physical connection.[25] However, other details support that Sylvia was the literal offspring of the Prophet. For example, if no biological connection existed between Josephine and Joseph Smith, it is strange that Sylvia would dramatically wait until her deathbed to divulge to her that the Prophet was her father only in eternity. If Josephine “was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith” only because of a sealing ordinance, rather than through physical siring, all of Sylvia’s children would be equally his offspring. However, none of them reported any similar divulgences from their dying mother, nor would there be any compelling reason to keep such knowledge secret.[26] Josephine’s name also supports the relationship.

In addition, other sources, beyond the 1915 affidavit, corroborate the story. In 1886, future BYU president George H. Brimhall recorded: “Went to Spanish Fork… Evening had a talk with Father Hales, who told me that it was said that Joseph Smith had a daughter named Josephine living in Bountiful, Utah… Soon the contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph will be all gone.”[27] The Hales and Fisher families both emigrated from Kent, England and may have known each other prior to their arrival in the United States. In 1905, Stake President Angus Cannon had an interview with Joseph Smith III, wherein he stated:

I will now refer you to one case where it was said by the girl’s grandmother that your father has a daughter born of a plural wife. The girl’s grandmother was Mother Sessions, who lived in Nauvoo and died here in the valley. She was the grand-daughter of Mother Sessions. That girl, I believe, is living today in Bountiful, north of this city. I heard Prest. Young, a short time before his death, refer to the report and remark that he had never seen the girl, but he would like to see her for himself, that he might determine if she bore any likeness to your father.”[28]

Since Sylvia said she had never told anyone prior to revealing Josephine’s paternity to her, these accounts suggest that rumors of Josephine’s true biological father arose from other sources that received limited private circulation prior to Sylvia Sessions’ death. In other words, several historical documents support a genetic relationship between the Prophet and Josephine, besides Sylvia’s affidavit.


Hales says that, since the Lyons had separated, Joseph felt free to marry her, thus her relationship with Joseph was not necessarily polyandrous. That's problematic in itself, but I don't know any historians (well, unless you consider the Prices to be historians) who don't at least see fairly solid evidence for Joseph's paternity.

If you want to start a thread about this, be my guest. I couldn't care less about Joseph Smith's sex life. But you asserted that there's a "dearth of evidence" that Joseph was sexually involved with his wives. I'd say that demands a response, as it's demonstrably false, as is the suggestion that there is "no evidence whatsoever" regarding sexual relations with his "polyandrous" wives. Far from being fixated on Joseph Smith's sex life, I am instead more interested in truth and accuracy, and your statements were neither.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Themis
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Themis »

Droopy wrote:
Welfare costs government nothing. Governments have no money to pay of any welfare programs, or anything else. All welfare programs are paid for by the taxpaying producers of any society. When it becomes to economically or politically risky to extract further taxes, a government will simply fund their welfare programs through inflation. There is no rational limit to that process - until the collapse comes.


One of the more unintelligent statements I have read. Of course the government pays for things by taxing the producing members of society. Are you suggesting the government shouldn't tax and just cease to exist. It's the responsibility of people to hold their representatives accountable. If they don't then they will have to pay the consequences. Lets just hope we don't get to many like minded people like you out there.
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_Carton
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Carton »

Droopy wrote:Are there any aspects of leftist philosophy and ideology that are compatible/harmonizable with the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints?

I'd be interested in two aspects of the question here:

1. Philosophy/ideology. Central propositions and beliefs about the human condition, human nature, the purpose and meaning of life, and the proper role, scope, and prerogatives of the state.

2. Policy. Actual policies, initiatives, and laws coming from the Left that you believe can be harmonized with gospel principles.

Droopy the one-trick pony ...
"I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not."
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

Droopy wrote:
Welfare costs government nothing. Governments have no money to pay of any welfare programs, or anything else. All welfare programs are paid for by the taxpaying producers of any society. When it becomes to economically or politically risky to extract further taxes, a government will simply fund their welfare programs through inflation. There is no rational limit to that process - until the collapse comes.

One of the more unintelligent statements I have read.



Sorry.

Of course the government pays for things by taxing the producing members of society. Are you suggesting the government shouldn't tax and just cease to exist.


No. That would make me an anarchist, wouldn't it (how long have you been reading my posts, Themis?)

What I am suggesting is that government creates no wealth and has no money. Everything is pays for it first must take out of the economy surrounding it and upon which it is utterly dependent. Hence, what I am suggesting is that the taxpaying population actually "pays for" government programs, not the government itself. The state is merely a very complex funnel.

It's the responsibility of people to hold their representatives accountable. If they don't then they will have to pay the consequences. Lets just hope we don't get to many like minded people like you out there.


Really? What do you think I would do, if I had the political power?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

Droopy the one-trick pony ...


Any actual cogitations to reveal to us, carton?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Themis
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Themis »

Droopy wrote:
No. That would make me an anarchist, wouldn't it (how long have you been reading my posts, Themis?)


On issues like this it's hard to see much difference between the extreme right and anarchists. :)

What I am suggesting is that government creates no wealth and has no money. Everything is pays for it first must take out of the economy surrounding it and upon which it is utterly dependent. Hence, what I am suggesting is that the taxpaying population actually "pays for" government programs, not the government itself. The state is merely a very complex funnel.


The government is a representation of the people, and in a democratic country elected by the people, and it collects money in order to pay for things the people need or want. It's not to say that what they spend money on is all good causes. Your statement really does not mean much. Everyone understand where the money comes from.
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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I just want to make one point here.

Droopy thinks I am criticizing the Church because I view the communal system of The Law of Consecration as more similar to a socialistic or communistic society. But this is simply false. And note that he claims the same of David Bokyov or whatever his last name is. Droopy thinks that those who do not agree that the ideals promoted in a City of Zion are conservative free market economics are criticizing the Church. Again not so.

What they are criticizing is Droopy's spin. That is all.

Personally I think the idea of a City of Zion where all things are in common, where there is no poor or rich, where there are not "ites" is Democrats or republicans or whatever to be a beautiful concept if it could work. It would be a lovely place to live. But it based on what I understand about it it certainly is not free market conservative economics. It is more socialistic. Perhaps a benevolent communistic or socialistic society is what it is since people can come and then go if they choose not to comply with expected sharing of means, even though they loose their property.
_Runtu
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:What I am suggesting is that government creates no wealth and has no money. Everything is pays for it first must take out of the economy surrounding it and upon which it is utterly dependent. Hence, what I am suggesting is that the taxpaying population actually "pays for" government programs, not the government itself. The state is merely a very complex funnel.


I almost hate to admit this, but some of the start-up capital for my company came from the US Department of Energy. We're making pretty good money, and I've been told the DOE money was crucial to making our technology into the useful and valuable products we have today. No one else does what we do, and the oil industry has only reluctantly adopted our technology (at least until they realized that some companies were saving millions of dollars using our stuff). Without government help, the wealth we have created may never have happened.

It is a huge oversimplification to say that the government creates no wealth.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

The government is a representation of the people,


Is it? I'd like you to clarify this a bit. Does the state represent the people, or is the state a representation of the people?

To break it down even further, do the representatives of the people (congresspeople and Senators) represent the people, or does "the government" represent the people. I say this because "the government" is much more complex and a far vaster entity than just the two houses of congress, or a parliament, encompassing numerous administrative agencies, bureaucracies, organizations, and external agencies (like 501c3s, special interest lobby groups, NGOs etc.) deeply intertwined with government, that all affect the manner in which, and if, "the people" are actually represented within that governmental structure.

and in a democratic country elected by the people, and it collects money in order to pay for things the people need or want.


How do you determine whether the state is paying for things the people need and want, or things the state needs and wants, or desires the people to come to believe they need and want?

Everyone understand where the money comes from.


No, many patently do not. All I need do here is point you to Melchett's claim, previously, the health care in Britain is "free."
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Melchett
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Melchett »

Droopy wrote:
No, many patently do not. All I need do here is point you to Melchett's claim, previously, the health care in Britain is "free."


You called?

Since 1947 too!
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