Happy Valley Photo Essay

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Kishkumen »

Blixa wrote:I think that is part of it and another part is the current institutional management of the church's history (which is itself part of its broader PR calculations and campaigns). And this is an interesting moment in the history of that history! There is a complex argument here that I can't do justice to in a few board posts, but I think that strands of this discourse ("the other as apostate white trash") that we see here and elsewhere in online mopologetics speak to something bigger than just individual snobbery.


Intriguing post there, Blixa. I wonder whether the patterns of conversion and inactivity as they are perceived to relate to prosperity and righteousness have anything to do with it. I would not be surprised if it were consistently the case that more lower-income people joined the Church, placing the burden on more longstanding and affluent members to attend to them administratively and perhaps financially, and then they drift away because the Church's demands make an already challenging life more burdensome. The result is that these folk are perceived as being less moral, more unreliable and unsteady, and then there is the "poor white trash" vision of apostasy.

Shumway's narrative, as perceived by the apologists, hits both sides of the apostasy coin. On the obverse we have Shumway the wannabe snob who claims that reading deep philosophy caused him to drift away from a childish faith. On the reverse we have the poor white trash family who failed in their obligations to Shumway because they lacked faith and perseverance. Lost in all of this is Shumway's very normal story of the young person who, in finding his own identity, drifts off in his own direction, away from his very normal and human LDS family. The subconscious agenda as dictated by apologetic anxieties rewrites the whole thing in order to make the whole story one of the failings of the Shumways.

The apologetic version is a very dark take on a fairly normal human story.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Kishkumen »

Spurven Ten Sing wrote:Sure, why not? We all have damage. We all have insecurities. In this case, P seems to be very insecure about his cosmology, but what are his options? Accept his own judgment and respond with courage and integrity and ditch the church? he would lose his job, his family, his current identity. Just who is Daniel C. Peterson without the PhD and NAMIRS? Maybe he fears having to develop a genuine personality.


Damn, Spurven! A genuine personality? What the hell? Daniel Peterson has a very genuine and distinctive personality. Obviously a number of us have taken exception to aspects of it, but, really, how can you say that? Daniel is very much his own person. He has directed his energies to the LDS cause, but that isn't because he lacks his own, genuine personality.

I know that you know we are all a bunch of vulnerable apes who need each other in order to survive. We all get by the best we can. Daniel has chosen the Mormon ape clan. You have not. Let's give each other a little grace here. Life is too tough to start dehumanizing Daniel as lacking a genuine personality.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Spurven Ten Sing
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Spurven Ten Sing »

Easy there, Reverend. I should have been clearer. P may be a great guy, secure in every other area of his life. I don't doubt this. Everyone says this, but in the Mormon delusion he does not strike me as the slightest bit genuine. I am under no false notions that I am not also fake in my weak areas.
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_Spurven Ten Sing
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Spurven Ten Sing »

And in my defense.

1. If P isn't either deluded or dumb, he sees the same evidence others do.
2. P did not accept the logical conclusions.
3. This does reflect on his integrity in this area.

My feeling that he is not genuine is not, at least, without any basis.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Kishkumen »

Spurven Ten Sing wrote:And in my defense.

1. If P isn't either deluded or dumb, he sees the same evidence others do.
2. P did not accept the logical conclusions.
3. This does reflect on his integrity in this area.

My feeling that he is not genuine is not, at least, without any basis.


I don't know, Spurven. It is a pretty serious charge to call the man's personal integrity into question here. I bet he weighs things conscientiously and then chooses the side of faith. That makes his decisions look illegitimate in your eyes, but how can we say that he is consciously being dishonest? I don't know. I would say that, like many deeply partisan people, his version of reality is distorted by his passionate belief in his own worldview. The thing is--many of us are, including me. You know about all of that liberal crap I post on Facebook. Do I do that because I am dishonest and lack a genuine personality? Maybe so.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Spurven Ten Sing
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Spurven Ten Sing »

Kishkumen wrote:
Spurven Ten Sing wrote:And in my defense.

1. If P isn't either deluded or dumb, he sees the same evidence others do.
2. P did not accept the logical conclusions.
3. This does reflect on his integrity in this area.

My feeling that he is not genuine is not, at least, without any basis.


I don't know, Spurven. It is a pretty serious charge to call the man's personal integrity into question here. I bet he weighs things conscientiously and then chooses the side of faith. That makes his decisions look illegitimate in your eyes, but how can we say that he is consciously being dishonest? I don't know. I would say that, like many deeply partisan people, his version of reality is distorted by his passionate belief in his own worldview. The thing is--many of us are, including me. You know about all of that liberal crap I post on Facebook. Do I do that because I am dishonest and lack a genuine personality? Maybe so.


The "math" is there. This is what is known. I suppose you lean more towards the "deluded" side of things, but I don't. I strikes me as disingenuous, I can't reach into my head and throw that switch off. It's what I see. Do I need to lie about this?

by the way, Droopy has already shown that no liberal has anything approaching honor!
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Kishkumen »

Spurven Ten Sing wrote:The "math" is there. This is what is known. I suppose you lean more towards the "deluded" side of things, but I don't. I strikes me as disingenuous, I can't reach into my head and throw that switch off. It's what I see. Do I need to lie about this?

by the way, Droopy has already shown that no liberal has anything approaching honor!


The "math" that I see here is one of the human organism with its limited intelligence. All of us possess basically the same limited apparatus in the brain, and we do the best we can to form a representation of reality that works for us as individuals who fall within a certain range of personality types. We all use heuristics on a daily basis to grapple with our world. We can't possibly apprehend the totality. Daniel has his take on Mormonism. You have your own take on things. We tend to see the tools others use as wrong and disingenuous because we rely heavily on our own tools and need to see them as legitimate in order to function. Some people abandon one set of tools for another. Some find a way to adjust to challenges to their set. But we are all in the same damn boat.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _Chap »

Spurven Ten Sing wrote:... We all have damage. We all have insecurities. In this case, P seems to be very insecure about his cosmology, but what are his options? Accept his own judgment and respond with courage and integrity and ditch the church? he would lose his job, his family, his current identity. Just who is Daniel C. Peterson without the PhD and NAMIRS? Maybe he fears having to develop a genuine personality.


I think we can be sure that to many members of the CoJCoLDS, especially those in leading positions, whether within formal church structures or others such as NAMIRS. it would be extremely painful and disorienting if they actually did have the experience of realizing that a critic of the church had succeeded in scoring a direct hit on something they acknowledged as a core claim.

The fact is, however, that a person like DCP shows signs of having developed defense in depth to such threats: I doubt whether he ever allows himself to perceive that such a direct hit has taken place. There is after all almost always a way out, even if it only consists of demanding that the critic should go and read a whole slew of marginally relevant apologetics, and disqualifying him from further attention till he has. There is also the use of contemptuous and mocking language to devalue the critic, and hence neutralize his criticisms.

So I don't think DCP ever spends long feeling seriously threatened. His problem, I suggest, is not any kind of deceitfulness or false personality - it is that the defensive strategies he has honed over the years have exacted a price: he has lost judgement to the extent that he cannot imagine how much better it would look if he did NOT post on and on and on about himself and his persecutions, both real and imagined. I am sorry to see a scholarly and (by all reports) quite affable individual doing himself and his church such a lot of harm when he means to achieve exactly the opposite result.
Zadok:
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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_floatingboy
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _floatingboy »

Kishkumen wrote:The statements were written in such a way that they could tie the pictures to his experience of LDS culture. In that, they do not do such a bad job.


It's true that most of the captions are innocuous. But a few are reaching. With the one of his sister holding the burger, he notes that traditional gender roles are still encouraged in the LDS faith. I can kinda sorta see the connection, but it's reaching to tie that photo into that concept. A wife serving her husband a meal (and vice versa) is just too commonplace in all societies to be noteworthy.

But the one that kills me is the one of his nephew with the sword. A little boy playing with a toy sword is about as normal as you can get. Unless his nephew specifically was pretending to be Nephi, that caption is a TOTAL stretch. I don't think it's damaging material whatsoever, but a definite eye-roller.
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_floatingboy
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Re: Happy Valley Photo Essay

Post by _floatingboy »

the DCP stuff in the comments is unfortunate. i really believe when people say he is a nice guy in person. i don't doubt it a bit. but he either genuinely can't see how he is coming across (i don't really think this is the case), or he has a persecution complex, coupled with a mental disconnect from the fact that he really is talking to other real people out there. his condescension is so glaring that it's hard to reconcile with what i hear about him as a person.
-"I was gonna say something but I forgot what it was."
-"Well, it must not have been very important or you wouldn't've forgotten it!"
-"Oh, I remember. I'm radioactive."
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