Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

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_Themis
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Themis »

Chap wrote:
Themis wrote:Insurance companies are an unnecessary extra layer that wants a nice cut of the profit as well, and you are right that many will deny coverage in order to make more money. The public system is also there to make money . The government may own the hospital, but there are many that will make their profit like the doctors, nurses, administrators, companies who build the buildings and all the medical products needed. There is plenty of profit motive in a public system.


I find the underlined part of that quote rather surprising. I have heard the word 'profit' used in a context where a commercial transaction is in question, but I am really puzzled to see it extended to salaried individuals. That would mean, for instance, that the soldiers whose sacrifice in Iraq was recently celebrated were 'making a profit' out of the war and are thus in the same category as Halliburton shareholders.

That seems to me a pointless abolition of a useful distinction.


LOL You are right that it would not be the proper word to use for salaried employees, but my point is that they do make money, and businesses are very much are part of a public health care system.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _EAllusion »

I think it is quite wrong to characterize the US system as "free market" health care. It is far from that. To take two glaring examples: 1) About half of the entire health care cost in the United States is funded by the government through Medicare/MA. 2) The government heavily subsidizes private health insurance and thus health care payment through the employer tax break system.

And those big examples just scratches the surface of the entanglement between private and government entities when it comes to health care in the US. It's not "free market" so much as a corporatist hybrid system.
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

2: The fact that you think everything has to be market driven in order to be viable is silliness.

CFR

There is nothing innately wrong with the government encouraging and targeting certian industries and activities. It happens all the time and has for a long, long time and many good things have come from it. Do they always get it right? No. Nor does the free market.
We have reaped many benefits it real life from things such as the space program, defense spending, government launched satellites, tax credits that are granted to encourage research and development and so on.


As long as you understand this aspect of the situation:

http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html#public_works

Economics in One Lesson
by Henry Hazlitt
Chapter One
The Lesson


Economics is haunted by more fallacies than any other study known to man. This is no accident. The inherent difficulties of the subject would be great enough in any case, but they are multiplied a thousandfold by a factor that is insignificant in, say, physics, mathematics or medicine-the special pleading of selfish interests. While every group has certain economic interests identical with those of all groups, every group has also, as we shall see, interests antagonistic to those of all other groups. While certain public policies would in the long run benefit everybody, other policies would benefit one group only at the expense of all other groups. The group that would benefit by such policies, having such a direct interest in them, will argue for them plausibly and persistently. It will hire the best buyable minds to devote their whole time to presenting its case. And it will finally either convince the general public that its case is sound, or so befuddle it that clear thinking on the subject becomes next to impossible.

In addition to these endless pleadings of self-interest, there is a second main factor that spawns new economic fallacies every day. This is the persistent tendency of men to see only the immediate effects of a given policy, or its effects only on a special group, and to neglect to inquire what the long-run effects of that policy will be not only on that special group but on all groups. It is the fallacy of overlooking secondary consequences.

In this lies the whole difference between good economics and bad. The bad economist sees only what immediately strikes the eye; the good economist also looks beyond. The bad economist sees only the direct consequences of a proposed course; the good economist looks also at the longer and indirect consequences. The bad economist sees only what the effect of a given policy has been or will be on one particular group; the good economist inquires also what the effect of the policy will be on all groups.

The distinction may seem obvious. The precaution of looking for all the consequences of a given policy to everyone may seem elementary. Doesn't everybody know, in his personal life, that there are all sorts of indulgences delightful at the moment but disastrous in the end? Doesn't every little boy know that if he eats enough candy he will get sick? Doesn't the fellow who gets drunk know that he will wake up next morning with a ghastly stomach and a horrible head? Doesn't the dipsomaniac know that he is ruining his liver and shortening his life? Doesn't the Don Juan know that he is letting himself in for every sort of risk, from blackmail to disease? Finally, to bring it to the economic though still personal realm, do not the idler and the spendthrift know, even in the midst of their glorious fling, that they are heading for a future of debt and poverty?

Yet when we enter the field of public economics, these elementary truths are ignored. There are men regarded today as brilliant economists, who deprecate saving and recommend squandering on a national scale as the way of economic salvation; and when anyone points to what the consequences of these policies will be in the long run, they reply flippantly, as might the prodigal son of a warning father: “In the long run we are all dead.” And such shallow wisecracks pass as devastating epigrams and the ripest wisdom.

But the tragedy is that, on the contrary, we are already suffering the long-run consequences of the policies of the remote or recent past. Today is already the tomorrow which the bad economist yesterday urged us to ignore. The long-run consequences of some economic policies may become evident in a few months. Others may not become evident for several years. Still others may not become evident for decades. But in every case those long-run consequences are contained in the policy as surely as the hen was in the egg, the flower in the seed.

From this aspect, therefore, the whole of economics can be reduced to a single lesson, and that lesson can be reduced to a single sentence. The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


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_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:I think it is quite wrong to characterize the US system as "free market" health care. It is far from that. To take two glaring examples: 1) About half of the entire health care cost in the United States is funded by the government through Medicare/MA. 2) The government heavily subsidizes private health insurance and thus health care payment through the employer tax break system.

And those big examples just scratches the surface of the entanglement between private and government entities when it comes to health care in the US. It's not "free market" so much as a corporatist hybrid system.



I don't think I ever characterized the U.S. health care system as an overwhelmingly free market one.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Runtu
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:I don't think I ever characterized the U.S. health care system as an overwhelmingly free market one.


I think the debate should be pretty simple: which is better suited for healthcare, the public/private system we have now, or a more nationalized system like those in other countries? Which produces better results? Which costs less?

I should also say that, if we decide we want a private system, what can be done to make it more efficient and serve more people?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Themis
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Themis »

Runtu wrote:
I should also say that, if we decide we want a private system, what can be done to make it more efficient and serve more people?


This is a question that is asked in private or nationalized systems all the time.
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_Runtu
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Runtu »

Themis wrote:This is a question that is asked in private or nationalized systems all the time.


Yep. Really, this comes down to a debate over the proper role of government in health care. It already has a huge role, and I don't know very many people who are arguing for ending government involvement completely.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_asbestosman
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _asbestosman »

In addition to these endless pleadings of self-interest, there is a second main factor that spawns new economic fallacies every day. This is the persistent tendency of men to see only the immediate effects of a given policy, or its effects only on a special group, and to neglect to inquire what the long-run effects of that policy will be not only on that special group but on all groups. It is the fallacy of overlooking secondary consequences.

Starts off okay. I'm expecting some kind of reference to studies that make this more concrete or perhaps show how we can work around some of our innate fallacies. Instead I'm treated to this banality:
The distinction may seem obvious. The precaution of looking for all the consequences of a given policy to everyone may seem elementary. Doesn't everybody know, in his personal life, that there are all sorts of indulgences delightful at the moment but disastrous in the end? Doesn't every little boy know that if he eats enough candy he will get sick? Doesn't the fellow who gets drunk know that he will wake up next morning with a ghastly stomach and a horrible head? Doesn't the dipsomaniac know that he is ruining his liver and shortening his life? Doesn't the Don Juan know that he is letting himself in for every sort of risk, from blackmail to disease? Finally, to bring it to the economic though still personal realm, do not the idler and the spendthrift know, even in the midst of their glorious fling, that they are heading for a future of debt and poverty?


Zzzzzzz.

It's not that it's wrong as such, but it's poorly-written and trite. Furthermore, there is an undertone of this problem of shortsightedness being something the other guy has, but something the author and his supporters are above. Uh, yeah. Sure.

Some theories of free market economics rely on the assumption that agents are perfectly rational. However we know this is not true. Indeed, this author made this very claim. The question now becomes what do we do in the presence of irrational agents? Well, we can favor freedom for freedom's sake. We can favor working to protect people from common pitfalls (say, making certain drugs illegal ;) ). We can even fight rational agents in the market and force people to pay for things like liability insurance when driving a vehicle even though it may not be in their self-interest to do so (because they have so little to lose compared to the insurance costs).
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_sethpayne
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _sethpayne »

Droopy wrote:1. Where did the DOE funding you used come from, Runtu? How and where was in generated?


The money, of course, is a transfer of wealth via taxation. Government itself produces nothing. However, government policy on taxation, student loans, research etc... play an integral part in economic health and growth. For example, the federal government funding the construction of the current freeway system in the US has very good for the market and allows companies to be more profitable because they can transfer goods from production to consumers country-wide.

2. If the stuff you make was economically viable in the first place, why did you need government subsidy to enter into its production? Why weren't private investors interested in your ideas?


Did Runtu say that the DOE provided the *only* source of funding?

Having worked in the early stages of a few startups I know how difficult it can be to obtain funding from traditional VCs, angel investors etc.... Investors are rightfully skeptical of something that is, at the outset, only an idea. When the firm actually starts generating revenue it is MUCH easier to get 2nd and 3rd round funding. Angel and round 1 can be tough -- even if you have a fantastic idea.

I imagine the government, that is, the people, extend loans/grants to firms for the same reason they guarantee student loans: to provide an opportunity for those for whom traditional lenders/investors cannot -- due to their fiduciary responsibilities -- provide capital. I am the beneficiary of student loans and see them as a great example of how we the people, help our fellow citizens receive an education. Higher education of course, reduces poverty, crime, drug abuse etc.... As part of we the people, I am completely at ease with this type of investment. I'm glad a portion of my tax dollars go to provide this service to my fellow citizens.

in my opinion the government, that is, the people, rightfully invest in or subsidize the research of technologies or research that have strategic or economic value.

Droopy -- you would be hard pressed to find a bigger champion of capitalism than I. At the same time, I recognize the import role government, that is, the people, play in the free market system.

Now, does the government, that is, the people, waste money on research or firms (Solyandra) where the risk of failure is too great or on research that has no strategic or economic value? Without question. That's why we hold elections. If our Senators or Congressmen/women spend money inappropriately we can vote them out of office. The 2010 elections illustrated that when a group of people get motivated and organized, they can shape the conversation. I certainly don't agree with all of the tea party dogma, but just as I see within Ron Paul, there is truth to be found in their positions.

My $.02
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

The money, of course, is a transfer of wealth via taxation. Government itself produces nothing. However, government policy on taxation, student loans, research etc... play an integral part in economic health and growth. For example, the federal government funding the construction of the current freeway system in the US has very good for the market and allows companies to be more profitable because they can transfer goods from production to consumers country-wide.


Let's not go down this strawman superhighway again. No one has ever mentioned anything, in these ongoing arguments, about the legitimate function of the state in providing infrastructure such as roads, bridges, and sewers. That' s never been a part of the discussion.

Did Runtu say that the DOE provided the *only* source of funding?


I don't think so. He did indicate that it was crucial, however, because private sector interest was minimal, or nonexistent.

Having worked in the early stages of a few startups I know how difficult it can be to obtain funding from traditional VCs, angel investors etc.... Investors are rightfully skeptical of something that is, at the outset, only an idea. When the firm actually starts generating revenue it is MUCH easier to get 2nd and 3rd round funding. Angel and round 1 can be tough -- even if you have a fantastic idea.

I imagine the government, that is, the people, extend loans/grants to firms for the same reason they guarantee student loans: to provide an opportunity for those for whom traditional lenders/investors cannot -- due to their fiduciary responsibilities -- provide capital.


My question is why a government agency like the DOE (and this raises red flags right at the outset), that has unlimited funds and will suffer no economic consequences - let alone political - for utter failure in its economic prognostications, sees "opportunity" where private owners of capital, who will be directly responsible to themselves or to other investors, do not. That's all.

I am the beneficiary of student loans and see them as a great example of how we the people, help our fellow citizens receive an education. Higher education of course, reduces poverty, crime, drug abuse etc.... As part of we the people, I am completely at ease with this type of investment. I'm glad a portion of my tax dollars go to provide this service to my fellow citizens.


This is a classic, textbook example of just the kind of thinking that has sent our entire economy and those of many other Western nations to the very brink of immolation. In case you weren't aware, Seth, the next big bubble to burst is the education bubble, and it will easily compete with the housing mortgage bubble in destructiveness. It must also be noted that the primary cause of the massive, soaring inflation in the cost of higher education over the last 40 years has been precisely the government's intrusion into the financing of that education -the pumping of easy money and easy credit into the educational market. Highly subsidized or "free" education is very popular. High popularity and easy access means massively increased demand. High demand means higher prices, and hyper demand, which is pretty much what the federal government's loans and grants have created, creates hyperinflation of the cost of educational services.

This has a number of deleterious effects, not the least of which is that it masks the core question of whether there is any legitimate reason the state should be paying for a citizen's education in the first place, at least on anything beyond a very limited and locally, state sponsored scale.

in my opinion the government, that is, the people, rightfully invest in or subsidize the research of technologies or research that have strategic or economic value.


Here' s that interesting assertion again (I think I last saw it from Melchett or Buff) that the state is the people. Interesting, especially from a German National Socialist or Italian Fascist perspective.

Droopy -- you would be hard pressed to find a bigger champion of capitalism than I. At the same time, I recognize the import role government, that is, the people, play in the free market system.


The only legitimate role I can find, in the writings of the Founders themselves, or in the constitution, is as the protector and guarantor of the unalienable rights, liberties, and associations intrinsic to human existence itself.

Now, does the government, that is, the people, waste money on research or firms (Solyandra) where the risk of failure is too great or on research that has no strategic or economic value? Without question. That's why we hold elections. If our Senators or Congressmen/women spend money inappropriately we can vote them out of office.


Yes, we can, but Seth, we don't. Solyndra is only the tip of a very large iceberg. There's ethenol, the entire "green" energy sector, the Chevy Volt, GM itself, the American sugar industry, public sector unionism,I mean we can go on and on and on. And the reason people do not vote out of office those who control these governmental fiefdoms made of gratuity and special interest pandering is because most Americans, at this point, are in some sense, directly or indirectly, receiving some kind of economic gratuity from the political class. Soft tyranny has a smiley face, Seth, not the face of a Morlock.

The 2010 elections illustrated that when a group of people get motivated and organized, they can shape the conversation. I certainly don't agree with all of the tea party dogma, but just as I see within Ron Paul, there is truth to be found in their positions.


Well I can appreciate your view here, but the problem we face at this point is a complete and radical reevaluation of the proper size, scope, prerogatives, and responsibilities of the state.

It cannot go much farther without coming into real striking distance of the end of America as a constitutional republic. What may emerge on the other side of the final collapse, I cannot say.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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