Jaybear wrote:Speaking of selective memory, Zelder forgot about the part of the interview where Young stated that it was the official position of the LDS Church that slavery was a "divine institution."
How could I forget it when he says it in the link I provided?
Jaybear wrote:That Zelder, is the most relevant part of the story. Not that Young was unwilling to pay his laboring a living wage.
Another relevent part of the story from BY:
"I am as much oposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term, it is abused. I am opposed to abuseing that which God has decreed, to take, a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants, but those they serve should use them with all the heart and feeling, as they would use their own children, and their compassion should reach over them, and round about them, and treat them as kindly, and with that humane feeling necessary to be shown to mortall beings of the human species."
So the problem is not that slavery is wrong, but that the divinely-instituted practice has been abused by some white people? How very progressive. LOL.
angsty wrote:So the problem is not that slavery is wrong, but that the divinely-instituted practice has been abused by some white people? How very progressive. LOL.
I never said anything about the church being progressive. I just think it's only fair to share a more balanced view.
Zelder wrote:It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants.
What an awesome quote. Why is this not in the D&C yet?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
angsty wrote:So the problem is not that slavery is wrong, but that the divinely-instituted practice has been abused by some white people? How very progressive. LOL.
I never said anything about the church being progressive. I just think it's only fair to share a more balanced view.
More balanced referring to the church's overall historical views on slavery and racism-- excellent. I assumed you were directing your additional context toward my claim that overall the church has not historically shown leadership in the Civil Rights arena, and I was responding with that in mind. Sorry :0)
angsty wrote: Yeah, and as part of his platform, Joseph Smith suggested that emancipated slaves would be sent to Texas (then part of Mexico) to avoid civil discomfort among white Americans. I could almost give Joseph Smith points if it weren't for the "free them and ship them away from here" part. Other times he publicly asserted that slavery was a divine institution.
When Joseph Smith ran for president, he was against slavery. In fact, I am sure that the missiourians did not forget this platform. We need to remember that Joseph Smith was killed as he ran for president. It could also be considered a political assassination. Considering what happened to slaves after the civil war, sending them to Texas was a good idea. The african slaves suffered after the civil war among the whites. Joseph Smith was right.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
angsty wrote: More balanced referring to the church's overall historical views on slavery and racism-- excellent. I assumed you were directing your additional context toward my claim that overall the church has not historically shown leadership in the Civil Rights arena, and I was responding with that in mind. Sorry :0)
The church did show leadership at the time of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was far ahead of the game when it came to blacks. Certainly when compared to other churches, the LDS church does just fine in comparison.
If the saints were vocal in advocating freedom for slaves, they would have been killed in Missiouri en mass. We also need to remember that people of color were more than welcomed into the church and they were treated as equals. Whereas some US churches had segregation between whites and all others.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
angsty wrote: More balanced referring to the church's overall historical views on slavery and racism-- excellent. I assumed you were directing your additional context toward my claim that overall the church has not historically shown leadership in the Civil Rights arena, and I was responding with that in mind. Sorry :0)
The church did show leadership at the time of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was far ahead of the game when it came to blacks. Certainly when compared to other churches, the LDS church does just fine in comparison.
If the saints were vocal in advocating freedom for slaves, they would have been killed in Missiouri en mass. We also need to remember that people of color were more than welcomed into the church and they were treated as equals. Whereas some US churches had segregation between whites and all others.
If you haven't already, you might want to read Ms.Jack's excellent post on this subject: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21803
ETA: to correct link.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
angsty wrote: More balanced referring to the church's overall historical views on slavery and racism-- excellent. I assumed you were directing your additional context toward my claim that overall the church has not historically shown leadership in the Civil Rights arena, and I was responding with that in mind. Sorry :0)
The church did show leadership at the time of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was far ahead of the game when it came to blacks. Certainly when compared to other churches, the LDS church does just fine in comparison.
If the saints were vocal in advocating freedom for slaves, they would have been killed in Missiouri en mass. We also need to remember that people of color were more than welcomed into the church and they were treated as equals. Whereas some US churches had segregation between whites and all others.
The church was wishy washy on slavery. Not like the courageous Quakers, who opposed slavery at every turn and were prominent in the Underground Railroad.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Glad that she agree with me. However, she is off base about Mormons and slavery. Here is Joseph Smith on the subject:
Joseph Smith states, "Break off the shackles from the poor blackman, and hire him to labor with other human beings, for an hour at virtuous liberty on earth is worth a whole eternity of bondage"
Now this was a revolutionary statement for its time. And it would get a backlash from proslavery people.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
angsty wrote:If you haven't already, you might want to read Ms.Jack's excellent post on this subject: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21803
ETA: to correct link.
Glad that she agree with me. However, she is off base about Mormons and slavery. Here is Joseph Smith on the subject:
Joseph Smith states, "Break off the shackles from the poor blackman, and hire him to labor with other human beings, for an hour at virtuous liberty on earth is worth a whole eternity of bondage"
Now this was a revolutionary statement for its time. And it would get a backlash from proslavery people.
I don't think you think she thinks what she thinks she thinks.
Do tell me the ways in which Joseph Smith displayed actual Civil Rights leadership-- ways that he put his money where his mouth (sometimes) was? Did he use his influence to organize actual progress? Did he participate in freeing slaves? Did he help slaves escape to freedom? Did he lobby government on behalf of slaves? Did he instruct the Relief Society or general membership to help in efforts to end slavery? Did he do any more than just use slavery as an occasional talking point?
Whatever his views (sometimes) were, any claims that he exercised significant leadership with regard to Civil Rights is seriously over-inflated. There were other churches that were anxiously engaged in promoting abolition. They deserve credit for that. Joseph Smith's purported leadership pales in comparison and is not particularly noteworthy.