BrianH wrote:What ...did some vast evil conspiracy of assassins and vandals travel the known world erasing words from thousands of documents, killing witnesses who could bear an oral tradition, burning down churches such that not a single trace of any evidence of these doctrines and practices could survive?
-BH
The Deuteronomists did quite a number on the Hebrew Bible, obscuring much of First Temple Judaism which contained teachings strangely similar to several peculiar strands of Mormonism.
Egyptian Christians hid their library of sacred books in the sands of Nag Hammadi, likely because the possession of those books had been forbidden by the orthodox form of Christianity which had gained preeminence. Many of the teachings in these books, which date back to the second century, also resonate with Mormonism.
So the basic answer to your question is yes. But it was not some "vast evil conspiracy of assassins and vandals" who were responsible. Just devout religious leaders who happened to be in power and who thought they knew better than everybody else what should be believed and what should not; what should constitute scripture and what should not; what should be read and what should not.
On another note, have you ever heard of the Johanine Comma?
BrianH wrote:What ...did some vast evil conspiracy of assassins and vandals travel the known world erasing words from thousands of documents, killing witnesses who could bear an oral tradition, burning down churches such that not a single trace of any evidence of these doctrines and practices could survive?
-BH
The Deuteronomists did quite a number on the Hebrew Bible, obscuring much of First Temple Judaism which contained teachings strangely similar to several peculiar strands of Mormonism.
Egyptian Christians hid their library of sacred books in the sands of Nag Hammadi, likely because the possession of those books had been forbidden by the orthodox form of Christianity which had gained preeminence. Many of the teachings in these books, which date back to the second century, also resonate with Mormonism.
So the basic answer to your question is yes. But it was not some "vast evil conspiracy of assassins and vandals" who were responsible. Just devout religious leaders who happened to be in power and who thought they knew better than everybody else what should be believed and what should not; what should constitute scripture and what should not; what should be read and what should not.
On another note, have you ever heard of the Johanine Comma?
Why is it that Mormons suffer from an apparent pandemic of demonstrated inability to answer even the simplest questions? The question HERE is, can you show us some reason to think that Jesus Christ ever taught the distinguishing doctrines of Mormonism listed above, which LDS church has told you guys to "think" that it has "restored"?
Apparently you cannot, thus you are forced by your programming to do your best to change the subject. Its so ...predictable.
Look C, any time you want to actually address the topic of this thread and at least TRY to answer the challenge I have posed for you, please do. But don't think that you can hide your inability to answer behind all the usual Mormon hand-waving, smoke screens and evasions. Those wimpy, stupid tricks only work on Mormons.
-BH
edited by harmony: and this post is another reason this thread is dropped into Terrestial. That's 2 attack posts in one thread.
BrianH wrote:Can you show me where I limited their source to the New Testament? I don't recall saying that.
But that is more or less what you’ve limited them to. You can add in Jesus’ own words from the Book of Mormon, but it doesn’t add a lot. Haven’t you heard of the phrase, “you can’t get Mormonism from the Book of Mormon”?
"More or less"? Okay, so then you CANNOT show me where I limited them to the New Testament. That's what I thought. But you are right - the restored doctrines of Mormonism, which I listed above cannot be found either in the New Testament or the Book of Mormon. So ...why should anyone believe them when they say they have "restored" the gospel of Jesus Christ, when their own sources do not reflect him ever teaching those doctrines and practices?
The LDS Church is more like the Roman Catholic Church, or the eastern churches, there is so much more that goes into their beliefs than some standard canon of scripture.
True but, this does not answer my question. My challenge to Mormons is to simply show us some reasons to think that Jesus ever really DID teach the various doctrines I listed above, which they attribute to him every time they claim to have "restored" his gospel with the doctrines of their organization.
BrianH wrote:True but, this does not answer my question. My challenge to Mormons is to simply show us some reasons to think that Jesus ever really DID teach the various doctrines I listed above, which they attribute to him every time they claim to have "restored" his gospel with the doctrines of their organization.
-BH
There is today no doubt that when Joseph Smith said he was restoring ancient teachings that had been lost, he was simply speaking the truth.
Joseph Smith taught of a grand council of the gods in heaven. This was a part of First Temple Judaism. The Deuteronomists tried to obliterate it from the Hebrew Bible, but vestiges remain. This is the view of current non-LDS Old Testament scholars.
Modern non-LDS Old Testament scholars also tend to agree that the Hebrew God of First Temple Judaism had a wife. This was also suppressed by the Deuteronomists.
This thread was moved because of 2 attack posts by BrianH.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
I really don't like the feeling that I have to do this, much less do I like actually doing it, for it sickens me.
BrianH
The question HERE is, can you show us some reason to think that Jesus Christ ever taught the distinguishing doctrines of Mormonism listed above, which LDS church has told you guys to "think" that it has "restored"?
You have not established a reason for this community to think that Jesus existed or that he delivered the teachings in the New Testament.
Until you can do that, LDS here are not going to take you seriously and you will be viewed as a hypocrite.
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
BrianH wrote:What ...did some vast evil conspiracy of assassins and vandals travel the known world erasing words from thousands of documents, killing witnesses who could bear an oral tradition, burning down churches such that not a single trace of any evidence of these doctrines and practices could survive?
-BH
.
Considering the anti-intellectual climate of the dark ages it is entirely possible that things that Jesus taught could have been entirely lost or that doctrines that were considered blasphemy suppressed.
If you wish to engage in a bit of a debate, okay, let's start with your OP.
Obviously, Jesus' earthly life ended nearly 2,000 years before Mormonism appeared on the earth.
What is your evidence for the above? Can you supply empirical evidence that Jesus existed and had an "earthly life" and that it expired 2,000 years before Mormonism appeared on the earth? What is "obvious" to you has no merit in debate. It is simply an unfounded assertion on your part.
If you're going to hold LDS to your challenges, you must first support the claims you've made in your OP.
Where is the evidence for your above assertion?
FYI: If it's in the OP, it's on the table for debate.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Brian, you ask pretty cool questions but why do you have to be so arrogant sounding? I'm sure you are pretty cool in real life. Sitting in a Starbucks on a cool morning with you might be fun. Why post the crappy stuff, Brian? Why can't you be thankful people are spending their personal time to engage with you?
To the OP: it is a very good question. I feel that a god or angel is found to have Mormon qualities if he/she took the time to visit Mormons. We know Moroni, Peter, James, John, Elijah, and Ares (flaming sword) visited Joseph so they are all "Mormon". Jesus? Not so sure.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
If you wish to engage in a bit of a debate, okay, let's start with your OP.
Obviously, Jesus' earthly life ended nearly 2,000 years before Mormonism appeared on the earth.
What is your evidence for the above? Can you supply empirical evidence that Jesus existed and had an "earthly life" and that it expired 2,000 years before Mormonism appeared on the earth? What is "obvious" to you has no merit in debate. It is simply an unfounded assertion on your part.
If you're going to hold LDS to your challenges, you must first support the claims you've made in your OP.
Where is the evidence for your above assertion?
FYI: If it's in the OP, it's on the table for debate.
Jersey Girl brings up a good point. The basic premise of Mormonism is that it is a restoration of Christ's original Church. To Mormons, it is not obvious at all that Jesus lived 2000 years before Mormonism appeared on the earth. Latter-Day Saints believe that Christ's original church IS Mormonism in the purest form.