Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

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_RayAgostini

Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _RayAgostini »

I didn't see a great deal of difference between Seth's 2007 post here, and what he posted on MDDB:

by the way Dan, I've never called you a goon or anything like that. You'll recall I once went to a fireside you were giving just to meet you in person and share a book I really liked with you, and never let on to any of the TBMs in attendance that I am an apostate or anything, so as not to make a scene about it.

I haven't been up to Utah for several years, but the next time I go I'm still planning on calling you up and seeing if I can swing by or go have a taco salad at the cougareat or whatever. That is, if the apostatedar doesn't sound the alarm when I enter campus. ;-) If we do end up meeting, I'd like to bring some printouts of some FARMS material which I believe hastened my crossing the line from believer to skeptic, in case you're interested in some honest feedback from a real-life, non-hostile* person about how the FARMS stuff affected my attitude toward the church.

* I'm hostile toward the truth claims of the church, don't get me wrong here. :-) I'm just not hostile toward (at least most) of the people.
(Emphasis added)

Hostile towards the "truth claims of the church", which includes apologetics, of course. Not hostile towards people (like DCP). So, of course his 2007 post would be "hostile", quite in keeping with what he said. So Scott went digging here to accomplish what? Creating an even greater divide? Seth handed out the Olive Branch, and Scott effectively burned it.
_Runtu
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _Runtu »

RayAgostini wrote:Hostile towards the "truth claims of the church", which includes apologetics, of course. Not hostile towards people (like DCP). So, of course his 2007 post would be "hostile", quite in keeping with what he said. So Scott went digging here to accomplish what? Creating an even greater divide? Seth handed out the Olive Branch, and Scott effectively burned it.


Ray, this is a good reminder that, when possible, we should say and do things that break down walls instead of building them up. I know you and I both can be harsh on occasion with some people, but I hope we can do better this year. I am trying.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_RayAgostini

Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _RayAgostini »

Runtu wrote:Ray, this is a good reminder that, when possible, we should say and do things that break down walls instead of building them up. I know you and I both can be harsh on occasion with some people, but I hope we can do better this year. I am trying.


Ima workin' on it.
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _moksha »

sock puppet wrote:
Blixa wrote:..."mopologetics:" a term which designates to me a body of apologia that is disingenuous, intellectually vapid and invested in histrionic ad hominem attack...
When you consider what they are defending--not just the social, historical and cultural aspects of Mormonism, but its truth claims--those three might be the best tools available for mopologists. Defending the indefensible requires diversionary tactics.


This would explain any smear tactics. Best that nobody get too personally offended, since they are merely deer caught in the headlights of the apologetic process.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Sethbag
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _Sethbag »

Oh geez. I haven't read any of the boards in several days, because I was working on my car the whole time I wasn't out doing stuff with family members. I never expected to come back and find a thread like this.

Firstly, thanks for the kind words. Secondly, I probably was more strident four years ago than I am now. I suppose I'll have to go over there and say something about it. I'm not going to disown what I said then, except to say that with four more years of perspective, if I had it to say over again I'd tone it down.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_why me
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _why me »

Runtu wrote:That's how it works. It doesn't matter what you say are do, as long as they can dredge up something you said in the past in a moment of weakness. Then they can say that the negative quote represents your true self, whereas anything kind, reasonable, or decent you say is an act.



Are you decribing my treatment on this board? Thank you for your support in this matter. I really appreciate it.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Yoda

Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _Yoda »

sock puppet wrote:
liz3564 wrote:[DCP] told me that he had no problem with meeting Seth for lunch, and that as far as the 2007 comment goes, it simply caught him by surprise, because he hadn't read it before.

Can DCP ever keep his stories straight? It wasn't mere surprise, it was dismissive and expressing the futility of meeting with Sethbag:

DCP wrote:Well, maybe it would be a waste of time to discuss this topic with him. His viewpoint seems less interesting to me than I would have expected.


DCP was taken in by Lloyd's obvious ploy.

Dan's post was based on his initial reading of the comment. He told me via email that the comment took him by surprise. I think that his reaction was based on that "in the moment" response. It sounds, however, that if Seth were to contact him, Dan would have no problem with meeting him for lunch.

It is interesting to note that the MDD thread in question is now closed. I am not sure exactly why.

The good news is, Seth was able to state his feelings before the thread was closed. And, although Scott attempted to poison the well, I think that it is entirely possible that a meeting between Seth and DCP is likely to happen.

This was the final conversation between Scott and Seth before the thread was closed:

Sethbag wrote:I've been working on my car and making merry with family members for several days, and not looking at message boards, but Scott Lloyd's comment about me was brought to my attention, so I suppose I should say something.

I've been an unbeliever now for around 5-6 years. That first year was a sort of continuum from still-believer to unbeliever, and how strongly I leaned in either direction would have depended on what part of the year you caught me in. So four years ago, when the comment Scotty quoted was made, I had only been on the full-on unbeliever side for a year or so. The feelings were a lot fresher, and also the frustrations inherent in discussion about Mormonism between certain types of folks. If I had it to say over again, I'd be more diplomatic about it.

That said, I do think that some things I read from FARMS really did help put things into perspective for me in a way that helped me recognize, and accept, that the LDS Church in fact was on the wrong side of the argument. And it was these things that I indicated in an earlier post in this thread that I was interested in discussing with Dan at some unknown future time when I'm next in Utah and am able to go down to the Y for a visit.

Anyhow, way to go Scott for your attempt to poison the well. I'll leave it to you to decide whether you "won" or not.


Scott Lloyd wrote:Call it well-poisoning if you like, Sethbag. Or do as Dan's Malevolent Stalker and the other members of your cheering section did on the other board: Characterize it as a "smear tactic."

But let's be realistic: What I did -- with minimal commentary -- was nothing more than to draw my friend's attention to Internet content accessible to anyone with a computer and search-engine capability. I did it as a courtesy, by way of forewarning. Judging from his response, I note that he found the information surprising, perhaps even useful.

Ah, well, have no fear. According to one of the contributors to the thread on the other board, she engaged Dan in email correspondence and elicited from him a stated intention still to accept a future invitation from you, despite what alleged mischief I have wrought here. So your prospective luncheon engagement, at least for now, is not in jeopardy. That doesn't surprise me in the least. Daniel has never been one to dodge criticism or evade intellectual confrontation expressed in a civil manner.

I do still wonder about your intent. Though you acknowledge having been more bellicose in that post four years ago than you would be today, I note that you announced on the other board your intention not to "disown" any of it. I take it from this that you still regard the content in the FARMS Review as "inane" "unconvincing" "tripe," "intellectually dishonest," and "defense of the indefensible," a "desperate, last-ditch attempt to hold on to the faithful at all costs" (emphasis mine). That is to say, you see "the Mighty Scholars at FARMS" -- perhaps even Dr. Peterson himself -- as arguing and writing in bad faith.

Were I in his position, I would want to know that before making a lunch appointment.

And now that I have your attention, let me alert you to the fact that I have challenged an insinuation you made on the "Smithmas" thread over on the "General Discussions" forum. I now see the reason you have not responded. I hope your car is now running well now, that your Christmas observance with family was delightful, and that you have a happy New Year.


Let me say here, since Scott obviously reads here, that yes, Scott, Scratch did describe what you were attempting to do correctly. It was, indeed, a smear tactic.

And, as a friend of both Dan and Seth, I, for one, am glad that Dan didn't fall for it.
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Stay classy Scotty.
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _EAllusion »

While I wouldn't put it as stridently as Seth did then, I pretty much agree with the general content of his post that was dredged up. It's offensive to compare that as if it were the same thing as Will's pattern of misogynist behavior. Calling an apologetics organization a purveyor of intellectually dishonest, unconvincing tripe is not the same thing as a pattern of sexist, mean-spirited behavior.

by the way, if Sethbag reconverted to the Church, Scott would be one of the first in line to slay the fatted calf and treat him with affection and respect. All comments expressed with bile or anger would be looked the other way or downplayed.

I think Scott probably shoudn't be so shocked when people look at him and see a cultist. It's easy to see how one might get confused.
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Re: Scott Lloyd Engages in Smear Tactics Against Sethbag

Post by _Runtu »

why me wrote:Are you decribing my treatment on this board? Thank you for your support in this matter. I really appreciate it.


If that's the way you've been treated, then yes, it's unfair. My interaction with you has been based on what you say these days.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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