Was JSJr a believing Mormon?

[_mfbukowski]

I personally think Joseph lacked confidence to "translate" an entire book by pure revelation and needed props which I think he thought he was genuinely "translating".

Which would explain why sometimes the props were present and sometimes not.

Yep- I know of people who could get up in testimony meeting and speak for a half hour off the cuff, but if you ask them to give a formal sacrament meeting talk, they freeze up and have to have every word written down to read off a piece of paper.

I think Joseph was like that- he could receive revelations "off the cuff" but when he sat down to do something formal, he needed some kind of "crutch". I think it's as simple as that.

[_mfbukowski]

As I recall, the Book of Mormon plates were not present for most, if not all, of the translation process. Strange that he would feel more confident in his abilities early on than he did a few years later with the Book of Abraham.

But he still had the stone in the hat. The mere existence of the plates, I think, were sufficient to give him the crutch, but he could not read the characters without another crutch.

I think that process is evidence for my idea, not against it.

[_Blixa]

Why did JSJr then need a prop, a papyrus with hieroglyphs and hieratics, to believe he was doing 'translating'?

Have you watched Dumbo lately?

A little more seriously, I think reliance on physical objects for spiritual manifestations is often associated with a lack of education, and that as a person (or group of people) become more educated, their reliance on physical objects for spiritual power diminishes.

I am not certain whether that is a good or bad thing.

It could also be argued that as people become more educated, they tend to see themselves as more capable of existing in a world without divine intervention; and that this attitude of itself diminishes the ability to obtain spiritual power or manifestations through physical objects.

But if I had a glowing rock in my youth that really worked to translate plates, I would probably continue to believe in the efficacy of physical objects regardless of how well educated I became.

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon,
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers,
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not. --Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathèd horn.

All the Best!

--Wordsworthlieri

Starting with Disney and ending with Wordsworth. There is something beautifully Mormon about this post and I'm being entirely sincere and not snarky. I like this embrace of alleged "low" and "high" culture.

[_mfbukowski]

So would there be negative consequences to an unworthy priesthood holder who gives a blessing with the intent of helping someone?

Nah, I don't believe that for a minute. We are all just kind of stumbling around in this world trying to do our best, trying to help people will not be punished. Of that I am confident.

[_sock puppet]

I personally think Joseph lacked confidence to "translate" an entire book by pure revelation and needed props which I think he thought he was genuinely "translating".

I find that itself troubling. If you, mfb, saw or thought you saw manifestations of two heavenly beings floating in the air, their feet several feet above the ground, and you heard what is reported to have been said by elohim and then jehovah, what confidence in any measure is then needed to read the English words off the magic parchment so the scribes can write them down?

It's not a matter of confidence, it's a matter of belief. JSJr's story is not that he obeyed elohim/jehovah in anything and everything. It is that JSJr himself thought he was doing this, with a little help from them. JSJr thought he was 'translating' when he was merely reading aloud a translation already performed per his story by elohim/jehovah. No plates were needed for that.

The notion of props to prop up JSJr's confidence is another one of those apologetic ricochets. If that's the best explanation that the apologists can come up with, they fail miserably in trying to explain the claimed existence of gold plates, the role played by the Egyptian papyrus, etc.

[_sock puppet]

So would there be negative consequences to an unworthy priesthood holder who gives a blessing with the intent of helping someone?

Nah, I don't believe that for a minute. We are all just kind of stumbling around in this world trying to do our best, trying to help people will not be punished. Of that I am confident.

Yeah, just imagine if there was an all-knowing entity imparting knowledge to the people of the world through an oracle so that there could be some purpose, organization and not so much stumbling.

[_mfbukowski]

Yeah, just imagine if there was an all-knowing entity imparting knowledge to the people of the world through an oracle so that there could be some purpose, organization and not so much stumbling.

There's a lot less stumbling than you think. I was being accommodating. I have seen miracles myself. This week alone I saw an injured baby receive a blessing and return for a follow up with the docs 2 days later and there was no evidence of the injury.

We are here to walk by faith, not knowledge. If you think that is a dodge, there is not much I can do about it.

[_consiglieri]

Starting with Disney and ending with Wordsworth. There is something beautifully Mormon about this post and I'm being entirely sincere and not snarky. I like this embrace of alleged "low" and "high" culture.

I'm all over the place, that's for sure.

Have I quoted from Welcome Back, Kotter recently?

When you least expect it, expect it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_mfbukowski]

I find that itself troubling. If you, mfb, saw or thought you saw manifestations of two heavenly beings floating in the air, their feet several feet above the ground, and you heard what is reported to have been said by elohim and then jehovah, what confidence in any measure is then needed to read the English words off the magic parchment so the scribes can write them down?

They are two different things- Joseph I am sure was aware of his lack of education and I am also sure that writing a book would be vastly intimidating.

[_Drifting]

Yeah, just imagine if there was an all-knowing entity imparting knowledge to the people of the world through an oracle so that there could be some purpose, organization and not so much stumbling.

I have seen miracles myself. This week alone I saw an injured baby receive a blessing and return for a follow up with the docs 2 days later and there was no evidence of the injury.

If the baby's injury was still there on your return would you then have disbelieved in blessings?

Why, when Elder Eyring gave a cancer sufferer a blessing to heal him did it not work and he subsequently died from cancer?