Translation Process for Documents

[_Simon Belmont]

1) Smith was honestly unable to translate with the wrong stone because the power that Smith wielded actually lay in the peep-stone itself.

2) Smith knew the simple-minded Harris had swapped the stone and feigned the stupor to convince Harris it was a genuine process (in other words, he lied).

I choose neither of these options in this false dichotomy you have constructed. Joseph Smith translated utilizing the stone as a catalyst. It would not have mattered which stone was initially chosen, but it did matter that the stone was replaced with another. Seeing the wavering faith of his scribe, the Lord did not allow the impostor stone to act as a catalyst. It is all part of the plan.

[_beefcalf]

I choose neither of these options in this false dichotomy you have constructed. Joseph Smith translated utilizing the stone as a catalyst. It would not have mattered which stone was initially chosen, but it did matter that the stone was replaced with another. Seeing the wavering faith of his scribe, the Lord did not allow the impostor stone to act as a catalyst. It is all part of the plan.

Ahhh... the apologist's old get-out-of-jail-free card: deus ex machina.

[_sr1030]

I am interested in reviving this discussion. Any takers?

sr

[_beefcalf]

I'm in.

Let's hear what you've got.

[_why me]

I am quite sure LDS Apoligists can be very creative in defending their faith. In fact I would venture to guess they already know that it would be impossible for Joseph Smith to have translated the Book of Mormon.

thanks,
sr

Can you please tell us just how you see the Book of Mormon coming into play? Now remember, Joseph Smith translated the book by the power of god. Could god translate the book?

[_Drifting]

I am quite sure LDS Apoligists can be very creative in defending their faith. In fact I would venture to guess they already know that it would be impossible for Joseph Smith to have translated the Book of Mormon.

thanks,
sr

Can you please tell us just how you see the Book of Mormon coming into play? Now remember, Joseph Smith translated the book by the power of god. Could god translate the book?

why me, what evidence are you relying on to state that Joseph translated the book by the power of God (other than the fact that Joseph said so)?

If Joseph Smith did indeed translate the book by the power of God why do we not use the orginal version with only punctuation added?

If the process of translating the book (stone in hat) is non faith destroying why does this method not appear in any teaching manuals or Church media when wishing to depict the translation process?

Do you accept that Joseph Smith could have made it all up, even if you don't believe that he did?

[_sr1030]

Can you please tell us just how you see the Book of Mormon coming into play? Now remember, Joseph Smith translated the book by the power of god. Could god translate the book?

I believe the book was plagerized. There was no translating or gold plates, no Urim and Thummin.

Why would God need to translate a book? I don't understand the question. Why wouldn't the original text be written in English? Why an entirely new language called Reformed Egyptian?

sr

[_sock puppet]

Can you please tell us just how you see the Book of Mormon coming into play? Now remember, Joseph Smith translated the book by the power of god. Could god translate the book?

I believe the book was plagerized. There was no translating or gold plates, no Urim and Thummin.

Why would God need to translate a book? I don't understand the question. Why wouldn't the original text be written in English? Why an entirely new language called Reformed Egyptian?

sr

In that same vein, why did the Nephites even need to keep a record? elohim/jehovah know all, right? So if the Nephite story was one that the people since 1830 have needed to know, why couldn't elohim/jehovah just dictate the salient aspects of the Nephite story to JSJr through inspiration then, in 1830? No need for plates, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni and others could have better used their time on earth spreading the gospel, after all.

Better yet, elohim/jehovah should have foresaw what a much better learning tool for most people that a PowerPoint presentation is. In 1830, elohim/jehovah could have much more simply just have dictated to JSJr a list in bullet point fashion, maybe with a diagram or two, and hell, it would be much easier to understand and they wouldn't have needed those obviously mistaken Egyptian facsimiles to have embarrassingly been included in the LDS canon (part and parcel of the BoAbr).

At one time, it could be passed off as elohim/jehovah work in mysterious ways. Now that those mysteries have been plumbed and examined, it is more accurate to say that elohim/jehovah work in arcane ways.

[_sr1030]

I'm in.

Let's hear what you've got.

LDS generally agree that Joseph Smith could use his own words to convey the true meaning of the text he was translating in the Book of Mormon.

http://fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/An ... 22Adieu%22

They also criticize and laugh at those that would bring up the Adieu anacharism argument. What most of them don't understand is that there is a legimate problem created by the inclusion of the word, and the argument that Joseph Smith could use his own words to convey the true meaning of the text he was translating in the Book of Mormon. Translating a document with this freedom to use his own words to convey the meaning would also then include non-contextual words. Wordprint studies have shown that there were many authors of the Book of Mormon. I have no problem with that, but it does not at all support the LDS view of the origin of the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith was the only translator, wordprint studies certainly should have indicated only one translator. They did not, therefore it is not possible for the translation process to have happened as Joseph Smith indicated. The most probable answer for this is plagerism of the Book of Mormon from other works.

sr

[_Runtu]

I'm not sure I agree, sr (welcome back, by the way). A skilled translator knows how to translate not only the meaning, but the voice and style of the original. Therefore, given a good enough translator (God would be good enough, I suppose), multiple writing styles might come through.