Stk Pres Romney's Encounter With Feminist Mormon

[_Yoda]

But it is a fact that the church discriminates against women and subordinates them to men. It doesn't take a feminist or an anti-Mormon to see that.

Actually it DOES take an anti-mormon or feminist to see that, because that's the ONLY time I ever saw the same myself, is when I left the Church and became anti-mormon, because of blacks, women, and polygamy.

I was seriously wrong, and so are you. Normal average people who have no "agenda" either way see normal healthy relationships with women and men in the Church.

I don't think that Ms. Jack is denying that there are normal healthy relationships between women and men in the Church. That really isn't the point. The Church is patriarchial. There is absolutely no denying that.

Now, one can say that there is nothing wrong with a patriarchial order, and that can be up for debate. But, that is definitely the way the Church operates.

[_just me]

But it is a fact that the church discriminates against women and subordinates them to men. It doesn't take a feminist or an anti-Mormon to see that.

Actually it DOES take an anti-mormon or feminist to see that, because that's the ONLY time I ever saw the same myself, is when I left the Church and became anti-mormon, because of blacks, women, and polygamy.

I was seriously wrong, and so are you. Normal average people who have no "agenda" either way see normal healthy relationships with women and men in the Church.

You must not understand the meaning of the word subordinate.

[_ldsfaqs]

No, you simply don't understand that men and women are in fact EQUALS in the Church.....

We are "subordinate" to the Father, but in fact we are, and are to be EQUALS or as it is said ONE with the Father....
Don't transfer your anti-mormon perverted views onto us. We are not you.
There is no actual "subordination" in the way you believe in the Church.

[_Yoda]

No, you simply don't understand that men and women are in fact EQUALS in the Church.....

We are "subordinate" to the Father, but in fact we are, and are to be EQUALS or as it is said ONE with the Father....
Don't transfer your anti-mormon perverted views onto us. We are not you.
There is no actual "subordination" in the way you believe in the Church.

Woah there, LDSfaqs. First of all, Just Me is not an anti-Mormon. She is a member, and does not deserve to be addressed in that manner.

I understand what you are trying to explain, but you are a little off base. In the case of us being subordinate to the Father, he does preside over us. And the Father does have the final word when it comes to decisions. Is he teaching us to eventually be on equal footing? Yes. But that doesn't take away the fact that we are still subordinate to him.

In this same way, according to the Proclamation of the Family, the husband is to preside over the household. That means that, although the wife is a partner in the relationship, the husband is supposed to preside over the family in righteousness. That means that when the decision is finally made, it is made by the husband. It is the same way that the prophet makes the final decision in meetings with the Quorum of the 12. The wife is subordinate to the husband in that type of sphere. I am just calling a spade a spade here...which is all Just Me was trying to do. The Church is run on a patriarchial order. You can argue that it is perfectly fine to run things on a patriarchial order or not. But there is no denying that the Church is run that way.

[_Blixa]

Actually it DOES take an anti-mormon or feminist to see that, because that's the ONLY time I ever saw the same myself, is when I left the Church and became anti-mormon, because of blacks, women, and polygamy.

I was seriously wrong, and so are you. Normal average people who have no "agenda" either way see normal healthy relationships with women and men in the Church.

You must not understand the meaning of the word subordinate.

Or the meaning of the word normal.

[_MsJack]

Actually it DOES take an anti-mormon or feminist to see that, because that's the ONLY time I ever saw the same myself, is when I left the Church and became anti-mormon

So? Just because you were an anti-Mormon when you believed that doesn't mean you were wrong, nor does it mean that only anti-Mormons and feminists see something wrong with the way the church treats women.

I was seriously wrong, and so are you.

If you think I'm wrong, show, don't tell. Your assertions don't mean very much to me.

Normal average people who have no "agenda" either way see normal healthy relationships with women and men in the Church.

Argumentum ad populum is similarly meaningless to me. That said, I didn't say anything about whether or not there are men and women in the church who had normal, healthy relationships. I said that the church subordinates women to men in its teachings and structure. I don't have to appeal to silent, invisible "normal average people" to show that.

No, you simply don't understand that men and women are in fact EQUALS in the Church.....

I disagree, though I understand the church likes to assert that. But it simultaneously teaches that husbands "preside" over their wives. Preside means "to exercise authority or control." Men who are exercising authority or control over their wives are not "equals" with their wives.

And that's just one of dozens upon dozens of examples that I could give of the churches hierarchical teachings on the sexes.

We are "subordinate" to the Father, but in fact we are, and are to be EQUALS or as it is said ONE with the Father....

If I'm following this analogy correctly, you're agreeing that LDS women are subordinate to LDS men at present, but saying that they have equal worth to men and that they'll one day become equals with men by becoming "one" with them.

But we're not talking about the future; we're talking about the here and now. Teaching that one class of people will stop being the subordinates of another class of people in the afterlife is not the same as treating them as equals now.

Willy Law ~ Much thanks for going through the trouble of posting that information. I'll have to check out that book sometime. It sounds informative.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Women are absolutely not equals in the LDS church. Being an equal means you possess the opportunity to do whatever the other person can do. You're regarded as someone who has the same opportunities as you yourself enjoy.

Men can stay home and raise their children. It may not seem socially acceptable by some Mormons, but they can do it and not risk their membership. Women cannot possess the Priesthood.

Period. It just ain't happenin'. If I were a woman there's no way I'd belong to something like that. You just empower your own oppression.

- VRDRC

[_Drifting]

Women are absolutely not equals in the LDS church. Being an equal means you possess the opportunity to do whatever the other person can do. You're regarded as someone who has the same opportunities as you yourself enjoy.

Men can stay home and raise their children. It may not seem socially acceptable by some Mormons, but they can do it and not risk their membership. Women cannot possess the Priesthood.

Period. It just ain't happenin'. If I were a woman there's no way I'd belong to something like that. You just empower your own oppression.

- VRDRC

The most senior leadership position that a woman can hold is that of Relief Society President. With responsibility solely for women. In terms of administering to both sexes, a twelve year old deacon has more empowerment than the Relief Society President.

Ward Relief Society President

The Relief Society president has the following responsibilities:

She serves as a member of the ward council. As a member of this council, she participates in efforts to build faith and strengthen individuals and families (see chapter 4).

She meets regularly with the bishop to report on and discuss Relief Society and welfare matters.

At the bishop’s request, she visits homes of members to evaluate welfare needs and suggest ways to respond to them (see 9.6.1). In the absence of the Relief Society president, the bishop may assign a counselor in the Relief Society presidency to respond to an urgent need.

She submits recommendations to the bishopric for sisters to be called to serve as leaders and teachers and to fulfill other callings in the Relief Society. In making these recommendations, she follows the guidelines in 19.1.1 and 19.1.2.

She coordinates ward Relief Society welfare efforts during emergencies.

She teaches other Relief Society leaders and teachers their duties, using this handbook as a resource.

She oversees the records, reports, budget, and finances of the ward Relief Society. The Relief Society secretary helps with this responsibility.

And this is the power a deacon has...

The Priesthood Is the Power of God
“When we [act] in the name of the Lord, as holders of the priesthood, we are doing it in the name and in behalf of our Heavenly Father. Priesthood is the power by which our Heavenly Father works through men” (Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 128; or Ensign, July 1973, 98).

The priesthood is God’s eternal power and authority. God accomplishes His work by the priesthood. He created all things by this power, and He governs the earth and heaven by it. We read in the Pearl of Great Price that the priesthood, “which was in the beginning, shall be in the end of the world also” (Moses 6:7).

God and Jesus Christ have given worthy male members of the Church the power of the priesthood so that they can help “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). The priesthood is the authority of God given to men to act in all things for the salvation of mankind.

Those who hold the priesthood have the authority to act in God’s name. Speaking to all priesthood bearers, President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

“We are the Lord’s agents; we represent him; he has given us authority which empowers us to do all that is necessary to save and exalt ourselves as well as his other children in the world.

“We are ambassadors of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our commission is to represent him. We are directed … to do what he would do if he were personally present” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1971, 47; or Ensign, June 1971, 49).

[_Willy Law]

John Larsen brought up a good point on a recent podcast that I had not thought of. Once you have become a relief society president (which sometimes happens before a women is 30), there is no more advancement for that women for the rest of her life. It must be very hollow for women in the church to reach the pinnacle of their advancement so early. Men have the possibility of a lifetime of advancement from EQ president to bishopric, bishop, stake president, GA, apostle, prophet.

[_Fence Sitter]

John Larsen brought up a good point on a recent podcast that I had not thought of. Once you have become a relief society president (which sometimes happens before a women is 30), there is no more advancement for that women for the rest of her life. It must be very hollow for women in the church to reach the pinnacle of their advancement so early. Men have the possibility of a lifetime of advancement from EQ president to bishopric, bishop, stake president, GA, apostle, prophet.

Not that it matters to his point but there is also Stake Relief Society President and Church Relief Society President. When I bring up the total lack of female leadership at the GA level someone always mentions the Church Relief Society President as if that one position is equal to all the other GA level positions put together. (Seventy, Apostle, Prophet, Presiding Bishopric)