Intersting summary. I have a long drive tonight and tomorrow and hope to hear most of it. I can better comment then. But a few remarks in general:
Yahoo Bot wrote:My conclusion is this:
1. Hooking up with CES is really a dangerous thing to do if things aren't exactly right in your life, and really, who is perfect in their lives and marriage? Unhappiness with your CES job translates to unhappiness with the Church. The kind of raw ambition and assertiveness you need in your job from day to day is inappropriate in a church setting. John couldn't deal with this conflict. Weakness in the CES system and its personnel translated to weakness in the Church.
I've long had my objections to CES. [And EFY for that matter.] In one funny anecdote, John relates a comment by Elder L. Thom Perry as to whether or when CES would join the Church. The time will come when CES as we know it will come to an end and the educational system at the high school and local institute level will come under the control of the stake presidents (with the possible exception of larger Utah universities, which will be under the control of the Seventy). Until then, CES will be burdened with the mediocre, weak and effeminate who are not called to their positions, but volunteer. They can't function as IT experts, writers, accountants or high school teachers. These are the types who will just tell kids what they want to hear to become popular in their own minds, and develop the cult of personality John was trying to develop. CES will not attract, for instance, capable female instructors.
I must admit I am surprised by your low and even harsh view of CES. Personally I am thankful that I did not go this route because I started college with aspirations to teach full time in CES. But I have known some seminary, institute and other CES personnel. I do not find them anything like you view them. And if CES is really rogue and staffed with whining weenies why would we ever want our kids to go to seminary?
On the local early AM seminary, again, I think those who do this are noble. They give a lot of time and effort into the call-it is now a calling by the bishop and I think approved by the SP-this a recent development. But it is a tough job. I know a few who taught for years. They get up early many mornings to teach our kids and they spend hours each evening preparing.
But yes I can see a full time CES person who does not progress as they wish becoming unhappy with the Church. Working for the Church in any position can be a dangerous thing. I have had some experience with Church employees in my ward of which we had quite a number. There have been some rather difficult issues over the years.
3. Oddity: Her discussion of her relationship with her gay friend, and how it disrupted their marriage shows that these two are very naïve. In any work environment as a professional you're going to be thrown into relationships with persons of the opposite sex and gay people, and you will spend time in bars (unless you are in Utah). It seems that the first time this happened with her, all hell broke loose.
A fair observation.
6. I can see why somebody would have a crisis of faith if they first encountered without explanation the polyandry, MMM and Kinderhook plates. But, he was a CES employee. CES has held seminars on these topics. He doesn't seem all that well-read in his own faith and he is an educator. Whereas I particularly dislike the apologists' argument that people should study up on their faith and become expert in the latest research and publication before throwing stones against their Primary teacher, I am going to hold a CES employee up to a higher standard. I mean, Grant Palmer was obviously familiar with these issues.
CES has seminars of difficult issues from LDS history? You sure about that>
8. They miss essential Christianity. An understanding of Christ's mission is completely missing from their 4 hours, although she occasionally mentions His name in sort of a New Age context. It is striking that a CES instructor is so lacking in faith and knowledge in Christ's ministry. I spent too much time hearing him explaining how was admired he was a testifier and a speaker. If I said to my close friends how often I have been admired as a speaker and a lawyer, I'd be ridiculed, disbelieved and hooted into oblivion with no friends remaining. He deserves to be criticized for focusing too much on self-admiration.
I have not listened so I will reserve judgement. But I think it hardly fair for you to conclude this from a podcast the focuses on their disaffection. You really do not know what the husbands testimony was like when he taught and testified to his students.
10. He's desperate because his isn't the kind of marriage to which he agreed. He also comes across as a weak hanky-twister, the kind of man supremely acceptable in CES --- the crying and sobbing, but not the one to keep up with a hard-driven, capable woman. She's coming to grasp with her feminism, after years of living in an extremely insular and protected environment. As a result, she's blaming the church for her insular state, and he's blaming the church for what she's doing. But she signed onto CES, and CES is not the Church.
CES is certainly a part of the Church. If there are the issues you insist within CES it is the job of the Church to clean it up.
12. One of their final points deals with emotion, arguing that so much that passes for the Spirit is just emotion. This is basically just an attack on all of Christianity. Unfortunately, for those who study the New Testament, the Spirit and emotion go hand in hand. Jesus taught that knowledge of Him could not come without the intervention of the Holy Spirit. So, the McLays can certainly jettison that doctrine, but it is an essential element of Christianity.
I am not sure where in the New Testament it equates the spirit of God communicating through feelings and emotions. I have discussed this at length with many non LDS Christians and they all object to such an idea.
14. I hope the McLays come back. They expect perfection of themselves but fail to realize that nobody's perfect in the Church. Not even close. As I used to tell the teenagers I'd counsel, I'd tell them that each of the adults in the ward had terrible stories to tell about themselves if required. Christ is about forgiveness, not perfection.
I am glad you believe this and taught it. I wish it was more emphasized in the Church.