Is Lehi the father of the Polynesians?

[_Themis]

What do feelings at baptism and reasons for being baptized have to do with repeated claims that the Polynesians are descendant from Lehi without an ounce of archaeological or genetic support?

The glory of god is intelligence, now remember the warm fuzzies, turn off your mind and believe in the face of a staggering amount of evidence to the contrary.

It is more than feelings and they come before a person is baptized, if they are baptized because they prayed and had their prayers confirmed. To equate it to warm fuzzies would be an understatement. It is a genuine burning of truth felt deep from within.

Some of us have been on missions and worked with many investigators. We have also been very active believing members for most of our lives. We at one time believed we had spiritual experiences from God. You might want to ask yourself why people who know longer believe LDS claims tend to consider their spiritual experiences to be mostly or all internal.

[_Themis]

I usually think of the Jaredites as Asians or having picked them up along the way, but then again, I don't assume that the Americas were unpopulated when they or Lehi came here.

You don't, but that is the position of the church. You concede that the church's doctrine is that Noah's flood was Global. Therefore the churches position is that no one was living in the Americas when the jaredites arrived. The Book of Mormon tells us that they were all killed off. It certainly does not fit the facts, but it is the church's position.

by the way since everyone according to the church died off about 4200 years ago, there also couldn't really be any Asians. :)

[_Simon Southerton]

I don't think that the people from Polynesia are baptized because they are told that they are decendants of lehi
Rather they are baptized because they feel the spirit working in their lives and can testify to its power. No one to my knowledge wishes to be baptized because of linage. But they are baptized because of the workings of the spirit.

Many are taught this before they are baptised and they are indoctrinated continuously afterwards. If it isn't a factor in their conversion it is a big factor in their retention.

Do you remember your own spiritual promptings when you were a member?

I remember having many powerful emotional experiences in my life. I had many when I was a Mormon, while I was listening to President Kimball and when I was reading the Book of Mormon. I have had just as many powerful emotional experiences since leaving the church.

I no longer believe that God uses emotions to communicate truth with us or to reveal his only true church. If God does use emotions, why is he telling people who attend other churches that their church is true?

I had many deeply emotional experiences while I was discovering the true history of Native Americans. Just a couple of weeks ago I had them when two of my children graduated from university. I am good friends with my children, I love them, and I was very pleased to see them achieve an important milestone in their lives.

[_Simon Southerton]

Hey Southerton....

You claim yourself an "expert" yet you entirely ignore the fact that Lehi's DNA through Genetic Drift WOULD in fact ultimately be in nearly every single Native American, Islander, etc.

As such an "expert" in your field, I further don't know why you think that simply because you know someones "dominant" DNA, that you then know every single ancestor of that person, when in actual fact you don't. Your bigotry and bias betray's you, and you become no longer a professional in your field by your anti-mormonism, thus becoming instead simply a "quack", the very thing you all accuse LDS professionals of.

LDS scholars don't betray their professionalism, ethics, and ignore important facts in order to make their conclusions, but you anti-mormons certainly do.

Even more importantly, you entirely ignore the SPIRITUAL lineage that is the lineage the Church most oftens teaches, not a "literal" one. Not a single person that I know of generally "literally" believes their Patriarchal Blessing is "literal" in it's lineage expounding. Yet, YOU slim would have us believe that the Prophets have always meant "literal" when teaching Natives of the America's about their lineage and heritage.

I laughed when Murphy DNA came out, to his face even..... Because I had long already understood what the Book of Mormon in full and actually taught, and also the contexts of our leaders teachings. Even further, the sciences had long already contested this issue, and the answers were the same then.... DNA didn't change a single thing, except for being a "new spin" on an old anti-mormon claim.

You do much damage for your cause by writing personal attacks like this. Many believing Mormons reading your hate-filled words would find them offensive.

Everything I presented in the post is true. I can only assume that these truths are troubling you and that this is leading you to direct your frustration at me.

[_why me]

You might want to ask yourself why people who know longer believe LDS claims tend to consider their spiritual experiences to be mostly or all internal.

I think that exmormons need some kind of rationlizations for the experiences that they had with the holy ghost. Some head toward the warm fuzzy. Others discount the spiritual experiences by overlooking them through a mind rationalization. However, all need to live with the spiritual feelings that they now have discarded.

[_why me]

I had many deeply emotional experiences while I was discovering the true history of Native Americans. Just a couple of weeks ago I had them when two of my children graduated from university. I am good friends with my children, I love them, and I was very pleased to see them achieve an important milestone in their lives.

See my point? Such rationalizations are needed. They bring peace. Not to deny your feelings of being proud. However, when the truth was confirmed to you by the holy ghost, it must have been powerful and convincing.

[_why me]

Many are taught this before they are baptised and they are indoctrinated continuously afterwards. If it isn't a factor in their conversion it is a big factor in their retention.
.

So, they experience no spiritual confirmations? I think that they do. And it has nothing to do with indoctrination. But with spiritual confirmations that they are where they should be. But if you need to be believe that the church indoctrinates people, so be it.

I also felt good reading Shakespear and Company. It was a book about the bookshop in Paris where American writers hung out. It felt good to read that book and the personalities that visited the bookshop. But it was no comparison with the truth claim that I got from praying about the Book of Mormon.

[_Morley]

Many are taught this before they are baptised and they are indoctrinated continuously afterwards. If it isn't a factor in their conversion it is a big factor in their retention.
.

So, they experience no spiritual confirmations? I think that they do. And it has nothing to do with indoctrination. But with spiritual confirmations that they are where they should be. But if you need to be believe that the church indoctrinates people, so be it.

I also felt good reading Shakespear and Company. It was a book about the bookshop in Paris where American writers hung out. It felt good to read that book and the personalities that visited the bookshop. But it was no comparison with the truth claim that I got from praying about the Book of Mormon.

I'm guessing that you didn't pray about Shakespeare and Company--with real intent, having faith in Christ, that He would manifest the truth unto you. You're not going to get the witness of the spirit if you're not willing to do the work.

[_Themis]

I think that exmormons need some kind of rationlizations for the experiences that they had with the holy ghost. Some head toward the warm fuzzy. Others discount the spiritual experiences by overlooking them through a mind rationalization. However, all need to live with the spiritual feelings that they now have discarded.

Yet you are the one rationalizing why many people no longer believe their experiences were from God. I don't care for the warm fuzzy description.

I also felt good reading Shakespear and Company. It was a book about the bookshop in Paris where American writers hung out. It felt good to read that book and the personalities that visited the bookshop. But it was no comparison with the truth claim that I got from praying about the Book of Mormon.

These experiences come in various forms and intensities. You describe a more intense one for praying about the Book of Mormon, and of course went for the interpretation you were taught. Most tend to be moved by such expereinces to follow them, yet you never did. Maybe you could explain how you knew the expereince was from God and not self generated?

[_Yoda]

You might want to ask yourself why people who know longer believe LDS claims tend to consider their spiritual experiences to be mostly or all internal.

I think that exmormons need some kind of rationlizations for the experiences that they had with the holy ghost. Some head toward the warm fuzzy. Others discount the spiritual experiences by overlooking them through a mind rationalization. However, all need to live with the spiritual feelings that they now have discarded.

I think that you are generalizing. Not all ex Mormons deny spiritual experiences. My brother is no longer active. Hoever, he still had spiritual experiences which he will never deny.